A conversation with Kathleen Burns Kingsbury, an internationally published author, coach and consultant.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury is the founder of KBK Wealth Connection and host of the Breaking Money Silence® podcast. She is an internationally published author, speaker, consultant, and coach. Her firm’s mission is to empower women, couples, and families to shatter money taboos and communicate more effectively about financial matters.
Kathleen is a a natural saver, and attributes that to having grown up in a frugal household. She remembers working in a local restaurant, waiting on tables, when she was 15 or 16 years old. As a shy person it was a bit hard for her, so she soon transitioned to working as a teller at a local bank, leading to her interest in finance.
She became an FDIC bank examiner after graduating from college but soon found that, though she enjoyed banking and finance, she was drawn to coaching and counseling others. She studied psychology at a nearby university in the evening, only to realize that she liked her classes better than her day job!
Kathleen switched careers from being in banking and finance to being a clinical counselor, which she acknowledges was a huge shift for her financially. Fast forward fifteen years, to when Kathleen discovered the field of money psychology, established KBK Wealth Connection, and became one of the pioneers working at the intersection of counseling and money.
"I think I have a lot of faith in trusting my gut and knowing what's right for me. And then knowing I'm the type of person that will work really hard to make it happen. And if it doesn't happen, I'll learn something from it." Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Key takeaways:
- Spend time with your partner talking about what you’re thinking and feeling about money. So many of us in partnerships just fall into our roles and we don't really think about how we want to do this thing called money. Talk about it with each other, learn from each other, don’t judge each other.
- Bust through your money taboos. Many of us were taught not to talk about money. Not to talk about our thoughts and feelings, our attitudes towards wealth. More and more people believe that society would be healthier if we talked more openly about money.
- Notice if you’re struggling with imposter syndrome. A corollary with being empowered and finding your voice around money is negotiating to be paid what you're worth. Kathleen noticed in herself when she started her business that she was undercharging and underearning. She worked it through, consulting with coaches and taking courses, and is now excited to help other women become better negotiators.
About the guest:
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury, the founder of KBK Wealth Connection and host of the Breaking Money Silence® podcast, is an internationally published author, speaker, consultant and coach. She was named one of nine amazing conference speakers by InvestmentNews and her work has been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, PBS News Hour, Money Magazine, TODAY Money, Forbes, and CNBC. Her firm’s mission is to empower women, couples, and families (and the advisors who serve them) to shatter money taboos and communicate more effectively about financial matters.
Website: https://breakingmoneysilence.com
Podcast: Breaking Money Silence
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Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
I think I have a lot of faith in trusting my gut and knowing what's right for me. And then knowing I'm the type of person that will work really hard to make it happen. And if it doesn't happen, I'll learn something from it.
Narrator
Welcome to making change with your money. A podcast that highlights the stories and strategies of women who experienced a big life transition and overcame challenges as they redefined financial success for themselves. Now here's your host certified financial planner, Laura Rotter.
Laura Rotter
I'm so excited to have as my guest today, Kathleen Burns Kingsbury.
Kathleen is the founder of KBK wealth connection. She's the host of her podcast, the Breaking Money Silence podcast, and she's an internationally published author, speaker, consultant, and coach. She was named one of nine amazing conference speakers by Investment News, and her work has been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, PBS NewsHour, Money Magazine.
Today Money, Forbes, and CNBC. Her firm's mission is to empower women, couples, and families, and the advisors who serve them to shatter money taboos and communicate more effectively about financial matters. So welcome Kathleen to the Making Change With Your Money podcast.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Thank you very much, Laura. It's an honor to be here and to be Breaking Money Silence with you.
Laura Rotter
Oh, great.
So my first question that I like to ask all my guests is, Kathleen, what was money like in your family growing up?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Ooh, I love that question. So money in my family growing up, uh, we certainly had enough of it, but it was very much focused on saving money, Being responsible with money, balancing the checkbook.
So I learned a lot about saving money and being financially responsible. So that's not a bad way to go when you're a kid learning lessons around money.
Laura Rotter
And Kathleen, I'm just curious, was that directly communicated to you or you watched your parents do it? I mean, how?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Well, given my Profession as a well, psychology expert, negotiation trainer and coach.
I certainly have thought a lot about that. So I would say that that a lot of the messages, especially around saving and frugality were over. I was told, you know, that saving money was important. I like a lot of young kids were given a piggy bank and told that I would save a portion of whatever I got. So there was there was definitely.
Words put to it. There was also a lot of actions, not just from my father and my mother, but also my NMO who lived to 102, and she would always shop at filing's basement in Boston when there still was a filing's basement. And for those who don't know, that's a bargain discount place. And so all of our gifts that we would receive from my Nana Mo.
Would be from Fileen's basement, even to the point where when she would gift us like pajamas or underwear for Christmas, you know, those responsible granny gifts, they would be marked irregular. Name brands was not something that was in my house. It's not something that was valued. Yeah, I think it was both their actions were pretty consistent with what they said around savings.
I think the big thing that was left out of my education really had to do with. How it was okay to be financially successful. It was okay to ask for money and negotiate. Ironically, of course, that's what I end up doing now is helping women and advisors be successful and talk about money and talk about their fees.
But I really think that was not discussed and Act. There were no actions around that. 'cause my dad was in the Navy, so he got paid what he got paid. And my mother pretty much was a stay-at-home mom.
Laura Rotter
So interesting Kathleen, thanks for sharing. And yes, we often do end up either pursuing things that our parents did or as you said, pursuing things that our parents didn't. It's interesting to see which way.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Yeah, I think I'm a nice blend between the two because I certainly am a natural saver. So that has not gone away and I do value that part of my money personality.
Laura Rotter
So can you share with our listeners, I guess, first of all, was college paid for by your family? Was that a given?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Yeah, education was really valued. My mother actually was a teacher and then a librarian. My dad had his master's in engineering and like I said worked in the military. So I grew up just knowing I was going to college and knowing my parents were paying for college. Now I say that sitting here many years later, realizing how fortunate I am but in my house.
It was just a given, so that was something that they saved for again saving early on for our educations and they put both my sister and I Through undergraduate when it came to my graduate education because I have a master's in counseling psychology. I paid for that myself. I never asked pretty financially independent never asked for them to fund it, but my assumption was out, you know after undergraduate I was on my own
Laura Rotter
And how did you find that?
I'm curious or did you have jobs growing up? Is that something? You didn't have until you graduated. What was your relationship to work?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
I actually started working, I think I was 15 or 16. I started working. We lived in a resort town, also a military town. So I started working at like the local restaurant. I then soon decided that waiting on people and being a bus girl and being dirty wasn't really for me.
Although there's nothing wrong with that work. Believe it or not at the time I was shy, so it was a little bit hard for me and I soon got a job, believe it or not, at the local bank and started my career in finance as a teller. So, yeah, but, you know, I didn't even have to pay for my own books. I feel kind of bratty saying it. I, that money went to a fun account for me, so all the fun I had, I had to certainly fund myself, but, um, in terms of education, it was a full ride. Now being married to someone that didn't get a full ride and certainly seeing what people are coping with, with student debt and making these decisions, even the next generation, my sister's kids, I realized how fortunate I was that that was the situation.
Laura Rotter
Yes, it's, it's very true. I thankfully was able, well, I got a full ride and my kids got a full ride and I appreciate that they acknowledge it, that they you know, they have friends in school who are graduating or graduated with student loans, and they recognize and acknowledge, which isn't always the case that what a gift it was to graduate without, um, so Kathleen, you said you then went and got your masters in counseling.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Yeah, this is where it all goes awry, but all makes perfect sense, you know, many, many years later. So I actually started out as a finance major, graduated in finance and became a FDIC bank examiner. So I worked in the Boston area. It was during the savings and loan crisis of the late, well, the late eighties, early nineties.
And, um, I worked in safety and soundness. And so while I was doing that, I very quickly realized that, well, I like banking and finance and I like money. I didn't necessarily like that. I couldn't help somebody. So in a role of an auditor, traditionally, you're really. Noticing what they're doing wrong, bringing it to their attention.
And there isn't any coaching or counseling or anything like that. And so what I, what I did was cause I was kind of geeky and education is a value of mine as well. I decided to take some night classes at a college, um, right next to Lesley university. And I took it in psychology, basically for fun. And then I realized, wait a second, I like my classes better than I like my day job.
So I ended up switching, switching careers from being in banking and finance to being a clinical counselor, which is a huge shift. And from a financial standpoint, you go from making this much To make this much, uh, but my heart was full and I loved what I did eventually, uh, you flash forward 15 years of that career and I got tired of under earning and being burnt out and, you know, being a counselor is not the easiest of professions.
I loved my clients, but it's hard to do over a long period of time. And so that's when I discovered. Oh, this thing called money psychology. It has all the finance in it and it has all the. Yeah. The helping people and helping people figure things out and behavioral change. And that's when I created my company, KVK Wealth Connection, and the rest is history.
Laura Rotter
Wow. So that's a lot to take in. Is it okay if I ask you a couple of questions?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Oh, absolutely.
Laura Rotter
First of all, Kathleen, I'm just curious. You said you liked banking, that, that you were attracted to banking and finance. How did you know that? Like what?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Oh, so when I was a little girl, uh, two things, when I was a little girl, I had a cash register.
It was my favorite toy. Absolutely loved my cash register. And I love the sounds it made, you know, when you hit on the buttons, I love the ka ching, I love making change. I loved actually touching money. So all of that kind of is part of who I was when I was born. I don't think that that was anything that I was taught is this kind of, I really enjoyed it.
And when we would go to the bank, I just really wasn't enamored in the bank. I also had an uncle who was a vice president of a bank. I don't know how much that influenced me or didn't influence me, but eventually I got a job. I think I mentioned as a teller. And I really, it was like the grownup cash register.
And so I really loved what I did. I loved being a teller for my summer job. I mean, I made a lot less than you could at the, you know, restaurant, but I really enjoyed it. And I thought I would always be in banking and finance. So it's kind of just, I'm an intuitive person. And so I intuitively just kind of know, knew that this was kind of a cool place for me to be.
Laura Rotter
Interesting. And, uh, I'm also curious because I've, first of all, I've interviewed another guest who also remembers loving a cash register toy. Maybe I'll make an introduction.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
We get a cash register's anonymous, right?
Laura Rotter
And then the other thing is I've interviewed a number of guests who are, have sisters, you know, they grew up girls in the family. And felt that that was, um, a reason that they chose what were male dominated careers because the message they received, not seeing a difference with brothers, uh, was you can do anything and go into any field. Does that resonate with you?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
The message about you can do anything and gender was not a factor was certainly sent to my family, uh, as a message.
I don't... Think overtly. I think it was more through the actions. My dad and I had older parents. My parents didn't have me till I was 35. They have my sister at 30. And back then that was unusual. Nowadays it's not unusual. And so my father is certainly a traditionalist and he would do a lot of things that would traditionally be considered female roles in terms of like taking us to the doctors when we were sick or cooking dinner on a holiday or, you know, He would do all, you know, in fact, my favorite gender role thing was when I was going to prom, I needed a purse and it became this big thing between my mother and I who kind of butt heads a lot.
And so he finally said, I will make you a purse. And he sat down before I went to prom and made me a little silk purse to go with my outfit. So yeah, so there was definitely, my parents were team players and the message was no matter what your gender, you can do anything you want to. My sister went into farming and I went into banking.
Laura Rotter
And so then how did, uh, uh, you declared yourself an introvert when you were younger, how did an introvert decide to go into?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
I don't know, are all introverts shy? I mean, I definitely was incredibly shy, but I don't think, I think I'm on the edge of introvert, extrovert. I come across on these things as an extrovert, but I think I'm truly a blend. But I was an incredibly, incredibly shy child. So your question again?
Laura Rotter
Um, I'm just, it sounds like a very big transition to leave banking and move to counseling. And part of it is, I'm just wondering about that personality.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
It was a big struggle in my twenties, in a variety of ways to figure out who I was, what I wanted to be.
And I've historically early on, even though I had this rebel within inside me, I also was compliant. I very much wanted to make my parents happy. I was the straight A student, you know, that whole deal. And I, they did not say this, but I think I thought the expectation was to get a secure job. To get something that was reasonable and I had wanted to be an engineer for like a blip until I realized because my dad was an engineer until I realized, oh, I don't like anything about engineering.
And so I picked banking and finance. And then what I started to discover in my 20s as I did my own work was I'm not sure this is really me. I think this is what. I think people want for me. And so when I started to get in touch with what I really wanted to do, I've always been a hard worker. I've always, whatever I've done, I've been incredibly driven, but I realized that I wanted to help people.
I also had an experience in my life where I was helped with some mental health issues and wanted to give back. And so I think that certainly came into play and my parents, especially my dad was very supportive while I was trying to figure out how to. Make this jump. But it was scary. I mean, you go from being in your mid 20s making more than a lot of your colleagues with great government benefits to I'm going to, I'm going to be a therapist and make, you know, under minimum wage.
It's not the easiest transition. I did at the time start dating my now husband and I think his encouragement and knowing that I wasn't going to starve also helped as
Laura Rotter
Well. I think that's an incredibly brave decision. I'm curious before we go on, Kathleen, does faith play any role? And you can define faith however you want.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Not in terms of a, um, religion per se. I think I have a lot of faith in trusting my gut and knowing what's right for me. And then knowing I'm the type of person that will work really hard to make it happen. And if it doesn't happen, I'll learn something from it. Now, certainly that's easier to say sitting here in my late fifties versus in my twenties, but I also made another leap.
So I became a counselor and worked in counseling psychology, had my own practice, wrote a book, you know, started to move up the ranks and then decided I wanted to create my own company like I have today. So I had to do another big jump to a totally different field. I just think I must get bored. And then I'm like, I got to do something new.
Laura Rotter
And, and you really did. Develop, if you will, you're one of the pioneers in the intersection of counseling and money.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
That's sweet to say. Yeah, I didn't know it. I mean, at the time it was a newer field. I think about Ted Clonks and Rick Kahler were the folks that I reached out to when I started doing this.
But yeah, I had someone else say that the other day at a conference and I was like, wow, that both is such an honor, Laura, and also like, wow, I'm at the stage where. I was a pioneer.
Laura Rotter
I'm just wondering what skills of yours. You've already said that you're intuitive, that you have drive. You're a hard worker.
What other skills? Because I'm thinking it takes a bit of creativity to say, well. I'm gonna create my own path. What other skills or traits do you think you brought?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
I am incredibly strategic. So I think, and I didn't know that I was strategic, but I have always been strategic. I also have been incredibly good at.
Surrounding myself with people, whether that's networking, like with Ted Klontz in the beginning, you know, call emailing him and saying, Hey, I'm doing this and him saying, I was nobody, right? I mean, I was a person, there's nobody in the field and he said, oh, come by the conference. You can stop by by free and you can watch my seminar.
I mean, he was so generous, but I, I just have a little bit of, is that Moxie? I'm not sure what that is. And also I have also gotten support. So I have worked with different coaches over time, whether it's a speaking coach, a business coach, uh, just started, just finished up with a marketing strategy consultant coach.
I just believe that we can't do it alone, but if I have an idea and I have a sense of what I want, if I can put the right people Keep people in place to support me and figure it out. I will do it. And I also the last thing is I work better for myself than I work for other people.
Laura Rotter
It's an important thing to know about yourself.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Yes, I actually get more done in my own company than I would get done if I worked for a corporation. I do think if I, you know, at this point in my career, this probably won't happen. But if I had to go back and work at a corporation, I think with the maturity and the education and the emotional intelligence, I would be fine.
But it was not, it was not my jam. Plus I'm quick entrepreneurs can be really quick, uh, when you work for organizations or corporations, things are really slow in my opinion.
Laura Rotter
Yes. Again, back, you need to understand the politics and how to get other people on board and not to move too quickly.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Which is a wonderful skill. Wonderful. I, I really admire it.
Laura Rotter
And other people, I think, can you define strategic because you named that as 1 of your strengths as you imagine? What does it mean to you?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Well, I guess what, you know, I think about where I think about what my heart wants me to do. And I think about. Where's the business side of that?
Like, is there a market for that? Where could I be successful? Where am I going to make the most difference? Where am I going to have an impact? And then I strategically think about what's going to build me credibility in that space. Who do I need to meet? What types of activities do I need to be doing?
And then I build it. It's, you know, I would love to say I'm a strategic person and it's all in a big strategic plan and it's, you know, I'm not. I could look like that on paper, but I'm not like that. But I really think it's strategically thinking like, I'll give you an example. So when I started my company, KBK wealth connection in 2007, so I had been in counseling psychology, had my own private practice, and at that point knew I was a little burnt out from healthcare and wanted to do something different when I sat down and thought about what's the intersection between what I love doing, which is empowering women and where's the, where's the business opportunity.
Given my banking and finance background, I thought banking and finance. And then I thought instead of going out to the women and empowering them directly, strategically, I'm going to go out and talk to the men because the industry is 85 percent men. And so if I can reach the men and help them do a better job advising women, then I can make the big difference I want to make in the industry.So that, that is a very strategic thought, as opposed to just my heart really wants to empower women in my mind.
Laura Rotter
Thank you. That's very helpful. So thanks for sharing that definition. So Kathleen, now, of course, communicating about money, right? I just saw an article in the Wall Street Journal about having a money date with your spouse.
So can you share your, not only philosophy, but your, the way you give advice for couples? To communicate about money, which as you know, is not an easy thing to do.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
So breaking money silence is what I call it. And breaking money. Silence is defined as that uncomfortable feeling that many of us get when we talk about finances with other people, that's could be a romantic partner.
That could be your kids, your aging parent. It could be your boss at work. It could be your clients. If you're self employed, it's, it, it covers a vast array of financial conversations. And while it may include the numbers. It often includes how we think and feel about money, what it represents. So it's more the psychology of money.
And in terms of breaking money, silence, and I'll get to some advice for couples in a minute, but in terms of breaking money, silence, I had been in the financial services industry as a speaker and a consultant and a writer for a number of years. And what I noticed is that financial advisors, financial planners wanted to engage their clients in more meaningful conversations.
And clients had no idea that advisors did this or wanted to do it, but they wanted to talk more about money and how they felt about money. And so when I sat down to write the outline for my book, Breaking Money Silence, it actually, it was a long time. So it was a couple of years percolating in my head, but then it was New Year's Eve.
And I just sat down and I wrote out the outline and the idea was how do I write a book that's going to be a bridge between financial advisors and their clients that help each of them talk more openly and honestly about money with each other so they can be healthier advisors can be more financially successful and add value and.
I think clients can be more financially successful and happier. And so when it comes to couples, I think one of the things that happens is we just fall into our roles and we don't really think about how we want to do this thing called money. So I love when you mentioned a money date, I love that idea of a money date because it's, it's sitting down and having a conversation about as a couple, how are we going to do this thing called money right now? I am coaching newlyweds on how to have that conversation, which is so sweet and wonderful because they're so early on in their relationship and they're younger. But if you are in a relationship or you're older, it doesn't matter when you start, it's deciding, I'm going to spend some time talking about what I think and feel about money, finding out what my, Significant other thinks and feels about money and instead of judging each other, we're going to just learn from each other.
So that's kind of what, what I think couples need to do earlier on would be great, but it's never too late.
Laura Rotter
It's such important work, Kathleen. And I, you know, I came into this industry second career for me after many years on Wall Street and came to my life transition through mindfulness practices. And I really. wanted to be, if you will, a yoga teacher for money. I took for granted all the numbers oriented things haven't been involved in financial markets for so long. But the, I remember when I was at a conference and everybody was taking, I'm going to go to the session on investments and I, and I went to the sessions.
I think it was read, um, led by Ted Klontz on a deep listening. Yeah, um, that to me was where I wanted to, and in many ways continue to put my efforts because I think creating a safe space for people to have conversations about money, a client recently said to me, I, I never knew my husband's money history.
I never knew the messages he grew up with and thank you for, you know, having a space where we could hear that together. And. That being said, it's just, it's not easy because we each grow up with our own ideas that are communicated.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
It's not easy, but one of the things that I'm very hopeful about is there is one statistic out there that 71 percent of millennials agree with the statement that our society would be healthier.
If we talked more openly and honestly about money, so I really feel like the millennials and then Gen Z, while the stigma is still there, they might say it's done. But you know, what I see is it's still there in certain aspects, especially when it comes to like salary negotiations and couple hood and a lot of those things.
However, The idea that they know it's healthy to do as opposed to you look at like my parents or even my generation I'm a very old Gen X or almost boomer and We were just taught you just you just don't talk about it. So even in a family where we talked about savings we never talked about our thoughts and feelings about money or what we thought about wealthy people or poor people or What we thought about financial success.
I mean, that would have been unheard of. So I do have a lot of hope for future generations and really busting through this, uh, money talk taboo once and for all.
Laura Rotter
And I hope that your hope is correct. I look at the next generation. So my kids are sort of at the younger end of their cousins who are now married and In homes with children and there's nothing wrong with division of labor in my own family. I'm the money person, but I see it carrying on to the next generation that the husband's in charge. They don't know what's being saved, what's being spent. I bought books for women, you know, Manisha.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Oh, I love her books.
Laura Rotter
I've given them the books. I don't know if they look at it. It's like I'm busy. I'm raising the kids.
I'm getting them to school. I, I don't know. And he talks to the, the broker or, you know, I'm not interested in going to the meetings. And, um, yeah, so I work.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Well, I, yeah, no, that, that is a, that's a place of concern. And one of the things I have a book called how to give financial advice to couples. And one of the things that I talk about in there is I think advisors.
Uh, who are more financial planners, maybe just not investment folks, but should be requiring joint meetings, even though it's hard to schedule and it might be annoying. It's just really, I think so important and ultimately protects them and their business during times of transition. I also think couples need to be educated as you're trying to do with some of the people in your family about the risks of not being involved.
Doesn't mean you have to love like looking at charts and graphs. But you do need to know who your advisor is, where your money is, you need to know the basics, and if you work with a good advisor, that person should be able to ask you what's important for you to talk about and put your items on the agenda as well.
Laura Rotter
So, so very true. Kathleen, I know you talked about negotiating. As part of this knowledge and empowerment. Can you speak to that as, as a woman who herself has her own business? And I know talking about fees is not easy for me.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Yeah, it's not easy for a lot of us. So, you know, how I reinvent myself every once in a while.
So I'm not doing anything drastic, but since I got off the roads. Speaking during the pandemic, uh, I started to look at what's the next thing I want to do that I want to drill down in that relates to money psychology and all that we've been talking about. And that is empowering women to negotiate, to ask for their true value and to feel really great about it.
So you can ask for your true value and then feel really not great about it. So the idea is for us to become more comfortable. You know, in terms of negotiation, I think there's two important pieces. One is there certainly are the skills we need to learn in the strategies. And, you know, there's books upon books and training programs on that.
And we need to also understand our negotiation mindset. Like when we think about it, Laura, think about it for yourself. Like when you say, I really don't like that part, like, what is it about negotiating that you don't like? And what did you learn about negotiation growing up that may be hindering you or making it uncomfortable now?
Laura Rotter
Those are great questions. I, you know, ask, right. I know a lot of us women have imposter syndrome and I don't think it was modeled for me. Right. I was the daughter of two W2 employees.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Yeah.
Laura Rotter
And.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Yep. No, it's a lot of people. So I run some groups and individual coaching and, uh, I hear a lot from women, the imposter syndrome, like, am I really worth it?
And then the other piece that I hear is just not having a safe space to practice the skills to talk about it. And the other one I hear a lot is I don't want people to think I'm greedy. And I really do think that's more a gender specific. Concern not across the board. I know men that struggle here, too, but somehow taking care of ourselves and putting our needs in front of others because we're not socialized to do so as women becomes really challenging.
But once you're able to do it in a way that that is not only good for you, but good for your clients or your company, I find that women get a lot of pride and confidence and then we can kind of role model for the people behind us.
Laura Rotter
I mean, what's coming up for me as you're saying that Kathleen, I have a friend who writes a lot about women really using their network, which you've described and that women are less comfortable seeing relationships as transactional, like that, that feels very negative to us.
And it doesn't have to be a negative thing. If through friendships, you ask for help and they ask for help or. And yet men seem much more interested in doing that than women are.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
I also would love to see the research, though, on men broken down a bit. And I don't know if this is available. And what I mean is by profession.
So I know I've worked with and coached some therapists who are male who struggle. You know, with asking for what they're worth, because they're in this helping profession, I happen to be married to someone who makes a very decent living giving his profession, but is is a great at negotiating a car, but would never negotiate a salary.
And so I do think it would be interesting to break it down. For profession because I know the men that we tend to hang out with right tend to be in financial services At least you know initially career wise and you know I think that either they're all running around not telling the truth or they just happen to be They seem to be more comfortable just making that ask but I think relationship selling is where it's at And so women are really good at that.
So it just becomes more comfortable building the numbers in at some point, too
Laura Rotter
Yes, and you did mention that There's a part of you that's always looking for change and. What drew you to this, this next step of your work?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
I think that when it comes to charging for your true value, it's something that I've really struggled with, especially when I started my company in 2008.
I went through probably, well, first, when you start off a company, you're not Making a lot to begin with just the essence of start the nature of starting a company. But then I went through a period of time where I had come from the counseling profession. And so I was speaking, writing books in the counseling profession and obviously doing the counseling.
And then to go into financial services, the numbers are vastly different. And so realizing that I was undercharging, that I was under earning, that I was giving too much away, that I. Felt I had imposter syndrome, like who is this former therapist, former bank examiner to come in and, you know, require or request this kind of money.
And I worked through it and I worked through it, you know, with some help from coaches, I worked through it, learning more about money psychology. I've, uh, taking courses and learned about. Negotiating for my husband. He's great at negotiating. Like I said, other than his salary. So I learned a lot from him and I just decided when the pandemic hit where I'm at in my career and I thought, what do I want to spend the rest of my career before I just ski and mountain bike all the time doing?
And I thought, I want to really go back to my roots of empowering women, helping them find their voice and doing so in a way Where they can break money silence, they can feel good about it. And I feel like it's the least I can do to give back, um, to a profession that has given me so much.
Laura Rotter
So beautifully said. Thank you. So I'm going to ask you a question, which you alluded to when you said what isn't discussing families, but. Over your career with its many transitions, Kathleen, how has your definition of financial success shifted?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Uh, interesting. You had mentioned Manisha Thakur and she has a new book out about Money Zen and being enough.
And one of the things that she writes in there is about your definition of success. And what it resonated with me when I read it was that it can change. And so certainly how I describe financial success where I'm at at this phase of my life is definitely different for business financial success. I think for me now, I want to go deeper with people.
I certainly still want to make a good living. I want to practice what I preach. I want to be able to fund, you know, all the skiing that I want to do and travel, but it becomes less for me about. I have to make X amount to prove to myself that, you know, I've made it in this profession, in this job and this whatever, and more of I want to make enough and be financially successful enough where I can enjoy life.
I can have good work, work life balance, and I can do work that's meaningful to me. And that is, is, so the drive goes down a little bit and it goes into Really thinking about and being very purposeful and I guess strategic again about where I'm going to put my efforts. I kicked and screamed a little bit when internally I knew that was a shift I was making, but I finally caught up.
Having the world slow down for a year or two was helpful in me realizing it's okay to slow down. I'm going to survive. Yeah, but that's a long winded answer. I really think it does shift and change over time, and I would never put my definition of financial success on anybody else. We get to decide for ourselves what it means to be wealthy and to live a wealthy life.
And sometimes that's a lot of zeros after your net worth. Sometimes it's not.
Laura Rotter
I do think as we age, it shifts, as you just said for yourself, Kathleen. That's why I named my firm True Abundance Advisors. Because I came to learn for myself that I was lucky enough to have a career for 30 years that added a lot of zeros to my net worth.
And I was pretty exhausted and unhappy towards the end of those 30 years, because I had very little time and. Very little energy just sapped the energy out of me to be on a trading desk at 7 a. m. with people whose politics and values I didn't share. And so I think as we age, we realize that energy and time is not unlimited.
And we start to question the trade offs and I also want to acknowledge that it's not easy. It's really not easy to step off. It's not even a treadmill because it's of our own making that we are always pushing and always doing and it can be a bit of a. An addiction even at some point.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Well, I also think, I mean, there's a couple of things. One is, first of all, what a trailblazer you were to be a woman in Wall Street before that was trendy. Still isn't trendy, if you know what I'm saying, but that is impressive. And also I think the type of. People that chances are we are that we had that drive to do, you know, to be women in a male dominated industry and to kind of push forward and change things, um, personality wise.
I do think it's hard to shift gears, but boy, isn't it great once you figure out how to shift it a little you through mindfulness me. It's nature getting out in nature. Whatever the season really helps me appreciate and slow down and Enjoy. I plan on being here for a really long time, but enjoy, you know, every day of my life.
Laura Rotter
Oh, that's beautifully said. And I hope to get as much skiing in as it sounds like you're able to get in over the course of a year.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Yes. We talked about education being a value. Skiing is also a value in my family.
Laura Rotter
So, as we get to the end of our time together, is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
I just think if you, if in your heart, you know, something to be true, I think, listen to it, figure out how to honor that. And even though it may not be clear as to what the end results going to be.
Just trust your gut and go for it because I really think that that has made my career and my life very interesting and my hope is it would do the same for others. And I guess I'd like to encourage our listeners to listen to your podcast and the name of your podcast again is Breaking Money Time.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
It's breaking money silence, uh, like most podcasts that can be found at all different places.
My, my biggest, uh, giggle is when I asked Siri for it or Alexa for it, cause it comes on, but you can go to breakingmoneysilence. com and all the episodes are right there.
Laura Rotter
That's great. And I, I know you also mentioned that you have a, a checklist. It's not a checklist available, but 52 money talk tips on the homepage of your, of breaking money silence. Is that where it is?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury
Yep. If you want a little paragraph or a little tip a week on how to break money, silence, how to talk about money, you just go onto the homepage, sign up. It's a free campaign for financial advisors. They get a slightly different one. So if that is who you are, check that if you are a woman in business or someone in, you know, that is not a financial advisor, just click woman in business, and you will get a more consumer friendly one. And it's just a way of giving back and hopefully getting us talking more about money in our lives.
Laura Rotter
Such an important thing to be doing. Thank you so much for being my guest, Kathleen. I love the work that you're doing. And it's so clear that it's a, a mission for you. So thank you for sharing that today.
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Kathleen Burns Kingsbury founder of KBK Wealth Connection. And some things I took away. I'd like to share with you. First thing is spend time with your partner talking about what you're thinking and feeling about money. So many of us in partnerships just fall into our roles and we don't really think about how we want to do this thing called money.
Talk about it with each other, learn from each other, and most of all, don't judge each other. Another takeaway is bust through your money taboos. Many of us were taught not to talk about money. Not to talk about our thoughts and feelings, our attitudes towards wealth. But more and more, we're coming to believe that society would be healthier if we talked more openly about money.
And finally, notice if you're struggling with imposter syndrome. A part of being empowered and finding your voice around money Is negotiating to be paid what you're worth. Kathleen noticed in herself when she started her business that she was undercharging and underearning. She worked it through consulting with coaches and taking courses, and she's now excited to help other women become better negotiators.
Are you enjoying this podcast? Don't forget to subscribe so you won't miss next week's episode. And if you're loving the show, I'd really appreciate a rating and a review. Thank you so much.
Narrator
Thanks for listening to Making Change With Your Money. Certified financial planner, Laura Rotter, specializes in helping people just like you. Organize, clarify, and invest their money in order to support a life of purpose and meaning. Go to www. trueabundanceadvisors. com forward slash workbook for a free resource to help you on your journey.
Disclaimer, please remember that the information shared by this podcast does not constitute accounting, legal, tax, investment, or financial advice. It's for information purposes only. You should seek appropriate professional advice for your specific information.