An interview with Ellen (Connelly) Taaffe, a former Fortune 50 senior executive turned board director and professor, Ellen is on a mission for women to have more seats and voices at the table of workplace decisions. In The Mirrored Door, she guides the reader to assess themselves and their situations realistically so that they can take charge of their career success and take the lead in their lives.
Ellen (Connelly) Taaffe is a Clinical Associate Professor at the Kellogg School of Management, where she teaches Personal Leadership Insights and is the Director of Women's Leadership Programming. Previously, she was a senior executive at PepsiCo, Royal Caribbean, and the Whirlpool Corporation and is now a board director for three companies. She shares her insights in media like Harvard Business Review, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, the Washington Post, and TEDx. Her new book, The Mirrored Door: Break Through the Hidden Barrier that Locks Successful Women in Place was named an Editor’s Pick by Publishers Weekly BookLife.
Ellen's newly published book, 'The Mirrored Door: Breaking Through the Hidden Barriers Holding Successful Women in Place,' combines research findings and her own career experiences. It identifies five common hurdles women often encounter in the workplace and provides perspectives and solutions for overcoming these roadblocks, helping to conquer career obstacles.
"This is not a quick fix book, but it's a bit of the realities of what's at stake if we stay in these habits, these patterns that I think are a lot about ingrained expectations as kids, that can stay with us in the workplace and can hold us back. They contribute to us staying at the mirror door and thinking I'm not worthy or ready when, in fact, we are so much more ready than we realize. "- Ellen Taaffe
Key takeaways:
- Listen to yourself through your body. In one of her last roles in her tenure with PepsiCo, Ellen found that she was really burning herself out. Specifically, she was grinding her teeth, and asked her doctor what she could do about this. After asking her some questions, he recommended that she get a new boss!
She switched roles and was approved to work reduced hours. For the first time in her 20 year career with the Company, Ellen admitted to herself that she can’t do it all.
- Make room for serendipity and remain open and curious, especially when you’re figuring out what is next. Ellen was speaking with her alma mater, Kellogg School of Mangement of Northwestern University, about the Chief Marketing Officer role when she learned at a lunch that they were starting a Women’s Leadership initiative. Although that job was a more junior role than that of CMO, she was drawn to doing something where she could have a broader impact versus something that sort of felt like she’d “been there done that” before.
- Learn how to delegate, and to make decisions with less information. From her role as Director of Women’s Leadership Programming, Ellen can see first hand how women hold themselves back. She has identified 5 strategies that work for us but can also work against us, which she details in her book: The Mirrored Door: Break Through the Hidden Barrier that Locks Successful Women In Place"
One strategy she calls Preparing for Perfection, where women in general want to get it all done perfectly. The problem is, as we rise in responsibility, we have to learn to make decisions without perfect information, to take risks, and to ask for help. She acknowledges that this is a change that we can do in small steps, like building muscle.
About the guest:
Ellen (Connelly) Taaffee helps leaders create the futures they desire. She is an author, a Board Director, MBA Professor, an Executive Leadership Coach/Advisor, and Speaker. She is passionate about helping businesses and people ascend to higher performance levels, possibility, and purpose, and is on a mission to advance women, inclusion, and walk-the-talk leadership in the workplace.
Ellen works to help women recognize and understand what holds them back and through her book, "The Mirrored Door: Unlocking the Secrets that Hold Successful Women in Place," shares with them powerful strategies to push forward and make their mark.
Purchase The Mirrored Door: Unlocking the Secrets that Hold Successful Women in Place
Free resource: Ten Tips I Wish I Knew Earlier
Email: ellen.taaffe@kellogg.northwestern.edu
Website: https://ellentaaffe.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ellentaaffe/
Instagram: @ellentaaffe
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Ellen Taaffe
This is not a quick fix book, but it's, it's a, a bit of the realities of what, what's at stake if we stay in these habits, these patterns that I think are a lot about ingrained expectations as kids that they can stay with us in the workplace and can hold us back. They contribute to us staying at the mirror door and thinking I'm not worthy or ready.
So much ready, much more ready than we realize.
Narrator
Welcome to making change with your money, a podcast that highlights the stories and strategies of women who experienced a big life transition and overcame challenges as they redefined financial success for themselves. Now, here's your host, Certified Financial Planner, Laura Rotter
Laura Rotter
I am so excited to have as my guest today, Ellen Connolly Taaffe.
She's a Clinical Associate Professor at the Kellogg School of Management, where she teaches personal leadership insights and is the Director of Women's Leadership Programming.Previously, she was a senior executive at PepsiCo, Royal Caribbean, and the Whirlpool Corporation, and she's now a board director for three companies.
She shares her insights in media like Harvard Business Review, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, The Washington Post, and TEDx. And her new book, The Mirror Door Breakthrough the Hidden Barrier that Locks Successful Women in Place, was named an editor's pick by Publisher's Weekly Book Life. So welcome Ellen to the Making Change with Your Money podcast.
Ellen Taaffe
Hi, Laura. I'm so excited to be here with you today. Look forward to our conversation.
Laura Rotter
I'm going to start off our conversation the way I've been starting off all my podcasts, which is what was money like in your family growing up?
Ellen Taaffe
Money had, there were a lot of ups and downs in my household. I'm the fifth of six kids and grew up from Philadelphia, but grew up in Fort Lauderdale.
And money was tight. Most of the time I would say my dad was more entrepreneurial. Um, most of his time was in commercial real estate, which was really expanding in Florida in those times. And my mom stayed at home for much of my childhood, but then worked at a bank afterwards, neither graduated from college, but very much set a, you know, with education, you can do anything kind of thing.
But I would say from a financial standpoint, I could see my mom hold the stress, trying to make ends meet and, uh, there were times where we. You know, as my dad's expense check came in or something, you know, would come in, we would have more. And then there were other times where we were, my three brothers and dad would go to the flea market and sell things.
And they'd always come back with like magical stories. My dad just had this ability to bring so much fun into things. I don't think I even, as a young child, I don't think I even realized that, like, we're not going on vacations. We, you know, are, you know, trying to figure out what we sell off kinds of things, but we were in Fort Lauderdale where you could, you know, ride your bike to the beach and, you know, kind of had a, you know, just a very warm, loving family that we didn't, we, we did experience lots of ups and downs, which I think was both led to us being hard workers.
But my parents always sort of had this vision of you could still make, you know, this belief in the future. You could make anything happen that you want to.
Laura Rotter
I love that. I love that.How we view the world is our reality. And it sounds like your parents brought you up in a warm, loving home and you know, finances wasn't the emphasis.
Ellen Taaffe
Yeah, I would just say it also, it was an underlying. Thing though, it didn't stop us, but it was it was always there and I will just add to it that when my dad passed away when I was 29 turning 30, you know, my first big loss. My mom was turning 60 and, and needed to go back to work. Um, and, and so she had a lot of debt and I can remember getting her a credit card in her name.
And it was both an inspiration to see her get a secretarial job, become, you know, an administrator and office manager, remarry, build a life. But it was also a cautionary tale that. You have to make sure you can, you know, live your life and save and on all of that. So I did have sort of both sides. In a very loving, warm environment too, but with a lot of like belief in all of us that we could, we could set our minds to anything.
Laura Rotter
Well, thank you for sharing that. I'm curious. You said you had three brothers. Where were you in the birth order?
Ellen Taaffe
And, um, yeah, so I was the fifth. So, um, my older sister and then three boys, then me and then a younger sister. So I'm sort of like a middle in that I'm the middle girl and I'm the middle of the three youngest.
So we would. Sometimes sort of have the three oldest and the three youngest, but it was six kids within 10 years that we're all relatively close.
Laura Rotter
A little bit insane.
And you said that your parents did value education and that I'm sure you're not the only sibling who grew up aware of the need to have resources. So what was the expectation for college?
Ellen Taaffe
So all six of us went to University of Florida. And, um, so it was a state school back then. You could work all summer and work on the holidays and have a little job in college and be able to pay for most of it.
It still is a really great value at that school, um, and it's risen up in the ranks and, you know, so really it, it is a top public university, but at the time there was not a, not really an option. It was Florida or Florida state, and I knew that I wanted to go into business. And that was the better business school.
So there was not a travel to see other school. We didn't do that. And because I had older siblings there, um, we would travel up to the homecoming football game. And I, uh, there was no give up for me cause I wanted to go to Florida. Like I, you know, it would be great. You know, I remember the cheering. It's great to be a Florida Gator.
And I was excited to be a part of that. Some of these things, like I just didn't even, I didn't know that there was a bit of a disadvantage in some way because it was all very exciting and I loved my college experience too.
Laura Rotter
I love that. In what way do you look back and see that it was a disadvantage because it's not a named school?
Ellen Taaffe
Um, well, I just mean like that versus today's times where, you know, visit, uh, all these different schools and. And it's gosh it's more in some ways more disadvantage now because of the pressure of college choices and and what you have to do to get in as as there's such sort of low percentage acceptance rates and all those kinds of things so i'm at disadvantage like you know not having as much as other people did but but we you know we didn't really.
Go without a lot of things that were important, I guess, I would say,
Laura Rotter
And Ellen, you mentioned that you knew you want to go into business, which, you know, as someone personally, you had no idea what I wanted to do. And so it was an English lit major. How did you know you wanted to go into business?
Ellen Taaffe
Part of it was our,our dinner table. My dad would talk about, um, like he, when he was in commercial real estate, he would talk about he's, Figuring out what retailers and restaurants should go into a shopping center and he would, he would talk about it and engage us in the conversations too. And I love those conversations, you know, he would talk about things that I, I know now would also be about brands.
I don't think I knew it at the time, so I, I think he was very strategic and would share something that's kind of like he's trying to solve this. That what's the strategy of this, this shopping center and who would be the lead tenant. And like, it was just very interesting to me. And then I also worked at a retail store when I was in high school, um, a called the cricket shop Florida, Florida's finest swimwear boutique.
I think it was, was the tagline. They had five different stores throughout South Florida, and I ended up working in their office too, and it was run by a woman, and I was just sort of fascinated by what she did, and, you know, and she sort of, I would ask her questions about it, and I was like, you know, pricing things and marketing, you know, just doing kind of grunt work there, but she always engaged me in conversations, you know, when I would ask her about it, like, it was so, it was sort of fascinating.
To see, oh, that's running a business with these different retail shops. So I, I had a little exposure earlier and I, and I was really interested in that.
Laura Rotter
And I would assume that your father brought some enthusiasm to the conversation and that's part of…
Ellen Taaffe
Yeah, I could see how engaged he was. And I loved like brainstorming with him too, you know, like he entertained that.
So, yeah, so, so he definitely was, I think he, he was really fascinated with his, his work as well. Um, and very engaged in it. And, and so I think I, I saw people that really loved what they did.
Laura Rotter
And business, right, is a very big topic, right? Like when people say, oh, I have a friend who worked on Wall Street and more, I'm like, yeah, what part of, so what part of business ended up being your most interested part?
Ellen Taaffe
It ended up being brand management, but I, in, in high school, I was strong in math. And I was told you should major in accounting. So that was my declared major
Laura Rotter
So was I. Then I heard about auditing for
2 years.
Ellen Taaffe
Yeah. And then I took my 1st marketing class. And the, the teacher had. In a huge auditorium had students come up and.
Get blindfolded and taste Coke versus Pepsi. I mean, they agreed to do that and there were people who swore they knew the difference and once blindfolded, they couldn't tell the difference and it was his way to introduce branding. And so it was so fascinating to me, but I ended up switching my major that I started in sales for the Quaker Oats company.
Because I, I realized to be in brand management, you needed an MBA, which I did not have, and I just, it wasn't in the cards to go get an MBA then, you know, financially, but I worked in sales and eventually got up to Chicago where we were headquartered, where I was a sales liaison to the brand groups. And that's where I really saw what brand management was.
And eventually was able to move over, eventually got my MBA, but Quaker, you know, opened the door for me into brand management. So, you know, when PepsiCo bought us, I was there a total of 21 years. Could you share quickly,
Laura Rotter
Ellen, what exactly is brand management?
Sure. It's leading a, a business that is, um, you know, a brand, or sometimes you have a portfolio, a number of different brands.
And you're responsible for the product, how you price it, how you promote it, like whether that's advertising or on package promotions or trade promotions where the retailer marks it down or puts it on display. Or things like that, and then, you know, placement, the 4th P of, of just, you know, where's the right distribution channels for that, the right section in the store, and how do you work with our sales force to be able to get the right placement on shelf as well.
And so you're, you're usually at least in consumer package goods. Also managing a cross functional team that, um, helps run the business. So whether that is supply chain, um, new product development, R and D quality. Uh, there was a group in, you know, the Quaker kitchens that were like recipe development, sales, promotion, like all these sort of different areas.
So it's a leadership role where you're aligning people across different functions to, to bring your brand to market and, and market research, consumer insights, where you are also trying to understand, you know, how is your, what does your brand mean for people, you know, like the Quaker Oats brand might, you know, bring back nostalgia and wonderful memories of a parent or a grandparent, or be like, I was forced to eat oatmeal and I hated it.
You know, so. Theres all kinds of things like that that, you know, you, as well as, you know, how people buy it, you plan a whole strategy and a plan and all that. So hopefully that describes it. Otherwise I could go on and on too long.
Laura Rotter
Thank you. I guess I'm wondering, Ellen, you mentioned earlier that you were skilled in math and that you liked watching people in business.
So what skills did you bring and then develop over a long time in marketing? Brand management.
Ellen Taaffe
I think, um, I have always been empathetic one time. One of my bosses said I was the most empathetic marketer he's ever met. And to be honest with you, I wasn't sure if that was a compliment at the time.
I'm being easy on people, or I don't know. I think that's really important because it all starts with like the consumer insights of how do they use your product? What does your brand mean to them? And like, what, what's their pain point? Like, what is the, is this just like, I need to give the gorilla bar because it's not as bad as a candy bar, but it helps, uh, you know, uh, helps my kids have a little snack or something, you know, like what is something more in depth than that, Um, but so I think empathy, I think that, um, strategy.
So figuring out how you're going to grow or how do you get past certain issues that you might have? So strategic thinking was something that, uh, I think I grew over time, but I, it was something I, I think I had a little bit of and, and leadership, um, I,the chance to, you know, rally people across different functions.
Towards a plan, you know, for your business. Was something that, um, I think I, I always wanted to do and, and I had a lot of great training to help me do that and kind of was always learning to, you know, and the, the empathy I just think is so important because I think I am, I love connecting the dots between, you know, what, maybe I've always been an observer in some way, uh, As I connect these conversations, and that, that I think has served me well.
Laura Rotter
Thank you for thinking about that with me. I know, you know, looking at your CV, you stayed for 20 years, and then you had change. And I'm curious what led to the change. And, of course, you know, with your book in mind, and the way we women get in our own way, if you could also look through that lens, as you describe. You know, what helped you make changes and what maybe got in your way as you consider different changes.
Ellen Taaffe
Yeah, I, I think anytime you're in one organization for so long, it is hard to leave. And then my last two roles, the second to last one, I found that I was really burning myself out. So one of the success strategies I have in this book is working pedal to the metal.
And I was doing that. And there are risks are sometimes you don't bring others along. I don't know if that was as much my issue as the other risk is burnout. And I found I was grinding my teeth and, you know, said to the doctor. What, what do I do about this? And he had asked me other questions and his advice, let's get a new boss.
And so that I was sort of in post acquisition, really tough role. Um, and I talked to another person in PepsiCo that was doing some new, cool stuff, talk to him about that. And I, he offered me the job and I said, I'd like to do it on a reduced schedule basis or what they call part time and maybe it was 40 hours instead of 60 hours.
But he got approval for that and it was, you know, the first time that in almost 20 years that I sort of said, I can't do all this. I finally was listening to myself through my body through, you know, just the thing with grinding my teeth and I just sort of needed a break to revitalize. And it's the best thing I could have ever done because I did that job was a strategy job for PepsiCo.
So it was, you know, really a great development for me. And it was at a time when my husband was running a startup where he was so busy with that and they were really challenged with part of what they did was being outsourced. And so for me to go, we had two young girls, uh, young daughters, and just to be able to work three days and like a day at home before people worked from home was so amazing.
I was just able to revitalize myself. Once I did, I really felt like I am at the end, like I've done what I wanted to do at PepsiCo. It was great. I would highly recommend anyone work there. Amazing company and such great training ground too. But I was sort of ready to do something else and I was revitalized as my husband's company.
Was like it, it was going to go down or he, you know, he ended up deciding to leave and so I ended up taking a job with Royal Caribbean could not have been more different than what I had been doing and it was like the most. I don't know, in some ways fun, immersive, exhausting job, but we moved as a family to South Florida back to Miami, so relatively close where I grew up and, you know, to, it's a very expansive role.
So to go from what's the next granola bar or snack to what countries do we want to go to, you know, being responsible for the deployment and, um, what's we're building a new class of ships. So. You know, to figure out what's the spa menu and what is the state room look like and your group needs to, uh, you know, come up with eight restaurants concept menu on beyond like all the creative brief, you know, so it really stretched me and it also really had early on in that industry.
It had data because. We had e commerce and so I got into how marketing changed because now marketing needs people in a way who are so good at math because all the data analytics. That are a part of brand management and marketing, but I think that, you know, it was something I was revitalized and ready to do a big job again.
Um, but it was hard going into a new company that where brand was part of it, but it was really more of an operations driven company and it was hard leaving the Midwest. I mean, we, we sort of pretty quickly realized, wow, we are kind of a fish out of water in Miami relative to, you know, where we had been too.
But I love the job. There's so much I loved about it, but I had way too much travel, international travel. And my daughters were like four and six, I think then. So that was a tough, you know, so after two years. It was like, this is not sustainable for where we are in our life. We miss the Midwest and my husband's family.
My mom passed away at the end of my time at PepsiCo. And my husband's mom, um, was starting to, you know, get older and we wanted to move her closer to us, but up in the Midwest. But then I took the job at Whirlpool. Um, so reel me back in because I feel like I have not answered your question.
Laura Rotter
Well, I guess, Thanks for, um, that prompt.
I guess as I think about it, Ellen, so many of us who are married, maybe we go through different periods in our, in the responsibilities we take relative to our spouses. So it sounds like you were able to take some time to step back, which frankly I think is very brave. It was hard. Yeah, I guess, I guess your body was really pretty insistent that you needed to, but I guess you step back for a bit.
And then was your husband able to step up? I know you still missed being with your daughters, but when you were traveling and everything, did he take more of a home role?
Ellen Taaffe
Yeah, so he, um, really became more the primary parent. Um, he did some projects and worked for a nonprofit. But he no longer had the big full time job anymore.
So that was a transition for him too. And the same, when we moved to St. Joe, Michigan for the Whirlpool job too. Now he's 12 years older than me. So kind of, you know, as we went through our marriage of what do we each want, like from a ambition standpoint, what are the jobs, like, what are they taking of us in a way to, you know, who has travel and all those kinds of things.
I think he got to a point where he's like, you want the big job, but, you know, we each were, I think, unique in that there, although I, I met some other senior women in some of these companies that ended up having a husband who stayed at home or, you know, did something more part time. So, so it was a, you know, a transition for each of us.
Laura Rotter
And I think something, frankly, that's not talked about enough because this, I did the same thing in, um, in our marriage when we had, uh, three kids under the age of three, which is a whole other discussion, it was either. Do we hire another? au pair to be with our kids and my husband stepped back for many years to a part time job.
He became doctor mom. He was characterologically the guy. I've told the story where I'm leaving for work and he's writing little notes as he makes them lunch and we still had to live in. I said, You know, she could do it. He said, I want a piece of me to go to school with them. He would write little jokes to go in their lunchbox. And if it was me, I would have been like, can you please make the kids lunch? It was, you know, financially and characterologically the right thing to do. But Ellen, I think it's not talked about enough. I couldn't have had the career I did on Wall Street if I was also, you know, the primary. caregiver. And so it's great that you and your husband were able to work it out.
So Ellen, what was the transition from Polaroid to, you know, what you're doing now?
Ellen Taaffe
Um, I think you mean Whirlpool? Is that?
Laura Rotter
Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah.
Ellen Taaffe
So for after Whirlpool, my job, I got laid off Whirlpool. I was there during the, whatever you call it, economic downturn. So I left in, you know, 2009. And then I joined a boutique consulting firm for five years and ran that as the two owners were retiring and then they eventually sold it.
So I had been their client when I was at Whirlpool. And so it was, I, I, you know, spent some months sort of figuring out what I want to do next. And I decided I didn't want to be in a big corporate role anymore. And this was a great way to sort of learn about small business. And so after they sold it, I became a coach.
And I was also sitting on boards by then and I thought, okay, I'm going to like, wind down my work and coach and be on boards. And I was sort of bored in a way, and and I missed being part of something bigger. I kind of always was part of a big entity. And I heard that my alma mater Kellogg had started this women's leadership program.
They had just announced it and that there was a role. I was actually there inter interviewing to be the CMO, which I was sort of not sure, cause I was away from marketing for a bit by then after the small company. And the day I was there, the Dean announced this women's leadership initiative, and it really hit me.
Like, that's what I, can I get that job description? And it was a more junior role, but I had been, I had found myself on boards where I was the only woman and I. I work to change that so they're more diverse now, but I had been sitting on panels trying to get, you know, talk about getting more women on boards.
So when I heard about this opportunity, it didn't really matter that it was very low compared the up to the other opportunity because. I was like, I'm like, I'm drawn to doing something where I can have that kind of impact versus something that sort of felt like I've been there, done that in a way. And so I got the job and in the interview I had shared that I always thought one day I'd want to come back and teach marketing at Kellogg.
I always wanted to, you know, become a professor and they did put me on the faculty. But to teach leadership and so, so I teach a class called personal leadership insights and then I run the women's leadership program and now it's been 7 years. I can't believe I feel like I blinked and it's 7 years and that got me into writing and speaking.
And I, I never would have written this book. Had I not made that very huge move into into academia as well. So it's been. You know, there have been many pivots along the way in my career.
Laura Rotter
I love it. And I hear a number of things as you talk about that, Ellen. First of all, that you are good at listening to yourself.
You know, we discussed earlier how you took that leap and cut back because of what was going on in your body, that you knew that you didn't want to continue in the same kind of roles you had before, but you were willing to follow your gut, if you will. That, that women's leadership was really speaking to you.
And another question that comes up in my mind, sort of, I hear this almost karmic, like, that this, like, as you were there at Kellogg thinking about one role, this, the second role came up. What kind of role does faith, intuition, whatever you want to play?
Ellen Taaffe
You are a good listener here too. What I always say about that moment, because it was literally.
In a lunch that I rescheduled 3 times so the day of the person was, I was talking about boards and she said, oh, you kind of sound interested. The dean just announced this thing.You know, so I think it's kind of a make room for serendipity. You know, I, I would say I'm a very spiritual person, but I, I feel like.
When we say yes to things and we, there's certainly lots of times we need to start saying no a lot more, but yes, to things that could be new connections, even after Whirlpool, the job of, you know, that I was in for 5 years as president of Smith Dahmer, I went on a girl's weekend. With two people that I sort of knew and they had two other people and the other two were the the two that were going to retire.
So had I not gone on that weekend where we're just, you know, going to somebody's house and like, uh, you know, uh, rent a house. Just let's all get away. A few of us are in transition. And I, I met two women who were like, Oh my God, you would be perfect for this. So there's something that I do believe is like make room for serendipity around, especially I think when you're in a figuring out what's next.
Laura Rotter
I love that. I think that's really an important message to, you know, the women who are listening to this podcast to be open and make room for serendipity. So Ellen, can you please speak to in all these changes in your life, what led you to start identifying how women hold themselves back? Is some of that a reflection of your own experience and therefore led you to write this book?
Ellen Taaffe
Yeah, the origin story is that I was really new in this job. Um, you know, I'm Director of Women's Leadership Programming and I got to sit in on the first orientation, what is a one year, one wide program. And, you know, so it's the first day, all the students are very excited. Nervous and a female CEO shared her story, open it up for questions.
And these are hundreds of people in an auditorium, this gorgeous auditorium and all the hands that shot up were men. Uh, the women didn't raise their hands and, you know, so this was maybe six years ago and I was taken back to my own Kellogg orientation where I didn't raise my hands. There were a lot fewer women in the room.
None of us raised our hands either. And it, it was so startling to me and I started to learn, you know, that happens in the classroom too. There was a Harvard study that, you know, they, you know, not just my school, but like that there's, there's a holding back that's going on, there's, there's other, a number of pieces of research of men going for jobs when they have six of the 10 pieces, uh, you know, things on the criteria list, women think, you know, if I have eight, Oh no, I don't have all 10.
And so there's a lot of research about this holding back and it's truly a distorted view because it's not about having less competent. But it, it is this ingrained, it seems like it's an ingrained thing of some of the expectations of our gender. And so, so that sort of dove me into how would I do the programming.
And then over time, as I learned to write for other things like Kellogg Insight, I started to feel like, you know, I'm seeing this pattern and I did a TEDx talk. Where I talked about taking center stage or becoming the protagonist of your story in a against societal's way of making us a supporting player a lot of times.
And in that story, I talked about this metaphor of the mirror in the TEDx talk. I mentioned one line about it's like we're facing a mirror door where we reflect inward with Doubt and think we're not ready or worthy to move, move forward. And after the TEDx talk, a lot of people came up to me and said, tell me about the mirror door.
And so that ended up being the name of the book and, and I really went deeper into that. So it started with what I was seeing, but to your question, I also see it in myself. You know, I saw it in myself early in my career. I got feedback on one of the boards that i'm on that like, we know you don't know this industry.
But we want you to speak up more because you're fresh eyes, like we hired you for a reason. So I was also holding back thinking, I don't know this industry, I better wait. I better wait till I know it all. We can never know it all. So it's, it's something that I, you know, I then went deeper and it's a combination of research and stories and, you know, experiences of my own of, you know, things I see in the research.
Of women I've coached or students that I've had so that's what's put it all together.
Laura Rotter
Yeah. It's a great metaphor. The mirror door and curious Ellen. Can you share some strategies or tips that that you advise? Young women who are starting out who, you know, frankly, it's not only young women, though I'm sure we want to get to women as they're younger, but, you know, I'm, I'm in my sixties and it certainly resonates with me.
So can you share any tips or
strategies?
Ellen Taaffe
So I have identified five strategies that work for us, but also can work against us. And they're preparing for perfection, eagerly pleasing. Fitting the mold, working pedal to the metal, like I mentioned I was doing earlier and patiently performing awaiting for others to notice us.
So with all of them, there's a lot of power to each one, but there are these pitfalls too. So I'll just mention preparing to perfection. The power of that is how well we deliver and we got it all done and done perfectly well. Um, but it comes with a lot of reliance on preparation and as our roles change and expectations rise.
We don't have the time for that preparation. We have to learn how to delegate and that's really hard for a perfectionist. It could lead us to be a micromanager or could lead us not to delegate. We have to learn how to decide with less information than we once had, and we have to take smart risks too.
And so the, the thing with preparing to perfection is things change as we rise. And. We have to learn how to adapt and so some of the ways of doing that are dimensionalizing our work and the energy we put around it and asking for help. So it could look like talking to your manager about what things should I bring my a plus effort to.
And what things are like B or C level and I could come in with a draft and what things maybe I shouldn't do or what things I'm going to get someone else to do just as like a simple way versus trying to deliver a plus on everything and it's hard. It's a change. So it's sort of like do it in small steps to sort of build the muscle that you can take risks or show up with more uncertainty.
You know, I have a host of different things that you can do for each one of those. Um, I think the key is to, to sort of reframe your mindset that, like, I can't rely on that preparation, making choices and decisions with the information that was available is going to be good enough. And then if you believe that, what action would you take?
Because sometimes the underbelly of perfection ends up being oddly enough procrastination because we. You know, the young, young people say FOMO, I think there's FOMO of fear of messing up. And what happens is we hold back on decisions and, and the, the risk of this one is that we could be seen as the worker be the one you want on the team, but probably not to lead the team.
And so the risk is stress internally when you're not used to moving forward into action without all that preparation or in uncertainty. So it takes it takes discipline and practice to get after it, but but it's not a sustainable thing as we all know. Even though we can still strive for perfection.
Laura Rotter
What I'm hearing is part of that is a willingness to, um, like, be courageous, right?
Because it feels very vulnerable that you're going to make a decision without all the information or even the tactic you described, Ellen, of approaching your manager, your manager.Communication sounds like it's key and that's not always easy, especially when you feel like you're starting out, you know, you want to feel, you want everyone to think you know everything and you don't have any questions.
And the people I've seen when I was in the workplace who communicated had such a strong center and senseof self that they were willing to ask what. You know, what I might have thought, like, oh, that's a stupid question or, you know, that's showing, you know, again, like, your role in the board that might say something that other people in the industry are like, on the other hand, if you don't, then you're not, you're not going to contribute what you really do have the knowledge to contribute.
Ellen Taaffe
Yeah, yeah, it definitely, you know, one of the themes in the book is. It is about courage, you have that right and I think. In a world where so often women are given feedback that they need to be more confident, or they feel like I need to be more confident and that's really an outcome. I believe courage is the prerequisite.
So, you know, having the courage tapping into that to take actions and then. Figuring out, I did survive that comment that actually sparked a different idea, even though one person rolled their eyes at me or what, you know, like, like, you, you kind of realize, like, my job isn't over and, and I'm seen as participating and I'm going to get better at it as I go along.
So. There's not a quick fix. This is not a quick fix book, but it's it's a bit of the realities of what what's at stake if we stay in these habits, these patterns that I think are a lot about ingrained expectations as kids that that can stay with us in the workplace and could hold us back. They contribute to us staying at the mirror door and thinking I'm not worthy or ready so much ready, much more ready than we realize.
Laura Rotter
And Ellen, I think what books like yours do and what I hope sometimes that this podcast does is itnormalizes what we're feeling like, I'm not the only one holding myself back. I'm not the only one that has fear. And hopefully that helps us. Then be kind to ourselves, right? We're not going to develop courage by trashing ourselves.
I can't believe you're afraid to do this. You know, that's not going to work. And so really being kind, you know, culturally, we are trained to hold back. We as women are trained to be the worker bees and it's okay, sweetheart, to be afraid, to take this leap and you're going to do it.Ellen, as we get to the end of our conversation, I'm curious how your definition of success has shifted through all your roles and perhaps also financial success over this,
over these years.
Ellen Taaffe
I think early in my career, it was about promotions and titles, and then it It maybe was being seen as I was rising up the brand manager ranks. It was sort of being seen or acknowledged as, you know, a brand leader and that I could do that across industries. You know, I, I feel like early in my career, like success was building competencies.
And then later was like building mastery. I am definitely now in a legacy part of my career. You know, i'm 61. This book is a, is really about getting a message out to other people. So like the success for me is when something in here inspires someone to take action. Um, so it's, it's about having an impact and it's similar being on boards or teaching.
I feel like I'm my hope is that I could leave something to the future through people and I think financially, you know, I'm sort of looking at. I always thought I wanted to retire early and do the board thing. And then I realized. I have so much more time, even at, at 61 and while I don't want to be at this high pace of work that I'm currently at, especially with the book launch, I do think I'm going to be doing something for a while.
I don't know what, you know, like I'd love to do the board stuff for another decade, maybe, you know, maybe teach, I don't know, maybe there's another book. So I almost like the financial part is. Can I get my kids through school? I've got one left and in January, we'll have our final payment. You know, you like dancing in the streets, um, but get kids through school.
You know, we moved downtown, sold our house in the suburbs. I think sort of figuring out how we'll live in our retirement. Maybe that attaches to the financial part, but I'm, I'm less. Worried, you know, I was someone who was always concerned like we're past due on something. I would have an outsized reaction.
I think because of my childhood and I feel like now we kind of know where we are. So I don't necessarily have financial goals now, other than to to not be a burden on my kids. To be honest with you, which is a good one. Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Rotter
And as you discussed that now you feel like you're in the legacy stage, I'm curious with two daughters, well, one of them is still in school.
What impact do you think you've, you've had on them as a, as a role model? And I know as a parent, it's such a hard thing to say. I think that they have. Uh, seeing me love the work I do and, and like when I was interviewing at Kellogg, they were old enough to be like, how'd the interview go? What'd they ask you?
Ellen Taaffe
And then when I got it, it was a real celebration. So they were, they, the other jobs I think were a long time ago for them. You know, they don't really remember those. And so I think they learned to find something that. You enjoy and can be really engaged with and and find that and that you can also change, you know, so so my jobs have been very different.
And even what I do now, it's very different when I teach versus go to a board meeting or, you know, in writing or things like that. So I think my hope is that they will. Know who they are and find work that they can love a lot of it, you know, there's, there's always parts that we don't like, but, you know, can find something that enthralls them that, you know, and I, I think that they've seen that. In me, because I've been very fortunate.
Laura Rotter
That's a wonderful thing to wish for your children. I wish the same for mine. Ellen. Is there anything else you'd like to add? Um, I know your book is coming out October 10th. Is that when?
Ellen Taaffe
Yes, that's right. And it's available and, you know, all the retailers. I have a website Ellen tape dot com with some other, you know, Goodies in there, 10 tips and different things like that.
And I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I have a LinkedIn newsletter and I also have an email newsletter from my website too. So, um, I just very much greatly appreciate the conversation today, Laura.
So did I, and I will add all the links to the show notes so everyone can find this book. I highly recommend reading it.
Laura Rotter
Thank you so much for being my guest.
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Ellen Tafe, leadership coach and author of The Mirror Door Breakthrough the Hidden Barrier that Locks Successful Women in Place.And some of my takeaways arelisten to yourself. In one of her last roles in her tenure with PepsiCo,Ellen found that she was really burning herself out.
Specifically, she was grinding her teeth. and asked her doctor what she could do about this.After asking her some questions, he recommended that she get a new boss. She switched roles and was approved to work reduced hours. For the first time in her 20 year career with the company, Ellen admitted to herself that she couldn't do it all.
My second takeaway?Make room for serendipity and remain open and curious, especially when you're figuring out what is next. Ellen was speaking with her alma mater, Kellogg School of Management of Northwestern University, about the chief marketing officer role, when she learned at a lunch that they were starting a women's leadership initiative.
Although that job was a more junior role. than that of CMO, she was drawn to doing something where she could have a broader impact versus something that sort of felt like she'd been there, done that before. My third takeaway, learn how to delegate and to make decisions with less information. From her role as Director of Women's Leadership Programming, Ellen is able to see firsthand how women hold themselves back.
She's identified five strategies. That work for us, but can also work against us. Which she details in her book, The Mirror Door, Breakthrough the Hidden Barrier that Locks Successful Women in Place. One strategy she calls, Preparing for Perfection, where women in general want to get it all done perfectly.
The problem is, as we rise in responsibility, We have to learn to make decisions without perfect information, to take risks, and to ask for help. She acknowledges that this is a change, but we can do it in small steps, like building muscle. Are you enjoying this podcast? Please don't forget to subscribe so you won't miss next week's episode.
And if you are enjoying the show, a rating and a review would help other women like you find it and would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much.
Narrator
Thanks for listening to making change with your money. Certified Financial Planner, Laura Rotter specializes in helping people just like you, organized, clarify, and invest their money in order to support a life of purpose and meaning. Go to www.trueabundanceadvisors.com/workbook for a free resource to help you on your journey.
Disclaimer, please remember that the information shared by this podcast does not constitute accounting, legal, tax, investment, or financial advice. It's for information purposes only. You should seek appropriate professional advice for your specific information.