A conversation with Persephone Zill, a leader, educator and manager specializing in entrepreneurship and social innovation. Persephone is the Director of the Women's Business Center of WEDC (Women's Enterprise Development Center).
Persephone Zill, WEDC Program Director, brings a wealth of experience with entrepreneurial education and non-profit management to her role. She has been helping women start and grow businesses for over fifteen years.
Persephone shared her growth story with money. Like her mother, she had a child like relationship with money; basically ignoring it and handing the power to someone else. Until one day, that someone else said that he was not going to pay for the $20,000 of credit card debt from her business. That was her wake up call. Although it was painful, it was the beginning of her growing up. She has never accumulated credit card debt since.
Persephone's marriage ended in divorce when she was in her fifties. By then, she was already enjoying budgeting with her Excel spreadsheet, and had a full time job with benefits as a Senior Director with Feeding Westchester. She feels that her experience with money is very much connected to the work she does now, helping women entrepreneurs not be afraid of the numbers, not be afraid of Excel.
She encourages them to be interested in the numbers. They're going to tell you whether your business is viable, whether it's worth doing, how long it's going to take to break even, how long it's going to take to be able to collect a salary from your hard work.
"I very much wanted women to have a voice and to stand in their gifts, to to self-promote, to be able to do public speaking, to be able to sell, to close the deal. " Persephone Zill
Key Takeaways:
- Though budgeting may sound like a dirty word to many of us, to Persephone, budgeting represents freedom. She describes being really resistant at first to the notion of budgeting, but now she enjoys it. It's freedom, she says, when you understand your finances. Persephone she feels that the personal work she's done around her finances Is connected to the work she does now, helping women have a voice and stand in their gifts.
- Be willing to grow an edge. Growing an edge is how Persephone sees the financial journey she has been on. Similar to yoga, we don't shy away from the parts that are hard. Instead, we push towards it and then we are able to increase our balance, increase our courage, increase our flexibility and resilience.
- Move forward while you're afraid. Persephone talked about moving forward while afraid to pursue a part-time career as an interfaith minister and a spiritual director. She sees her through story as helping people access their deepest knowledge and wisdom as they go along their path.
- Find community. Persephone describes WEDC, the Women's Enterprise Development Center, as a safe space where women can learn to start their own businesses while being vulnerable.
About the Guest:
Persephone Zill, WEDC Program Director, brings a wealth of experience with entrepreneurial education and non-profit management. She was the Associate Director at Fordham University’s social innovation lab and a Senior Vice President at Feeding Westchester, developing strategic partnerships around solving hunger in Westchester. Ms. Zill previously served as the Program Manager for WEDC, training and counseling women entrepreneurs for over nine years. She received a BA in American Studies from Barnard College and an MBA in Management/Entrepreneurship from Baruch College and is a graduate of Leadership Westchester.
Linked in :-https://www.linkedin.com/in/persephonezill/
Website :- http://wedcbiz.org
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Persephone Zill: [00:00:00] I very much wanted women to have a voice and to stand in their gifts to to self-promote, to be able to do public speaking, to be able to sell like close the deal.
Welcome to Making Change With Your Money, a podcast that highlights the stories and strategies of women who experienced a big life transition and overcame challenges as they redefined financial success for themselves. Now, here's your host, certified financial planner, Laura Rotter
Laura Rotter: Excited to welcome Persephone to the Making Change with Your Money podcast.
Persephone Zill: Thrilled to be here.
Laura Rotter: I'm so happy to have you here as my guest. You are the director of the Women's Business Center within WEDC- the Women's Enterprise Development Center, and you do have an entrepreneurial bent though. You ran your own business consulting firm from [00:01:00] 2001 to 2007. You then served as the program manager for WEDC training and counseling women entrepreneurs for over nine years, and then you shifted to senior vice president at Feeding Westchester, developing strategic partnerships around solving hunger in Westchester.
Laura Rotter: And you then moved on to be the associate director at Fordham University's Social Innovation Lab. And now you are bringing your wealth of experience in entrepreneurial education and nonprofit management. Back to WEDC so, uh, so excited to have you here to hear about your journey.
Persephone Zill: Thank you. And it's been. Over 15 years that I've been helping women start and grow businesses. And I took a little detour, but first when my children were little, I had my own coaching career, coaching practice. Uh, so I got to [00:02:00] experience entrepreneurship myself and then helping people, like, what is your dream made me question, you know, what is my dream?
Persephone Zill: So I, I worked in the Solving Hunger space and then also at, at Fordham Social Innovation Lab. Um, and it was great, great experience, but ultimately, wo Wedc and Women's Enterprise is, is really where my it connects me to, to my purpose. So I came back just before the pandemic and it was a lot of work.
Persephone Zill: I've been a lot of work, but finally starting to calm down a little.
Laura Rotter: Good to hear it, and always I'm happy to hear from, uh, You know, women when they actually feel like they're living their mission.
Persephone Zill: I am . I'm absolutely living my mission and I, I really like to help others get there. It's, it's, it's, uh, just, it doesn't feel like work when you're, you found that sweet spot.
Laura Rotter: I know the feeling. So I'm going to start [00:03:00] with the question I've been starting all my interviews out with, which is, Persephone, what was money like in your family growing up?
Persephone Zill: Alright. um, I grew up in Washington, DC Both my parents were sort of peripheral peripherally involved in, in government type things, and my parents had very different money personalities.
Persephone Zill: Um, my father had grown up. In Stuyvesant Town, the son of immigrants, Russian immigrants. And he was very frugal, I would say, and, and worried. Uh, uh, you know, so it was, you know, based on his childhood you know, sharing a, a two bedroom apartment with four sons, altogether , you know, uh, just, just more of a having to stretch resources.
Persephone Zill: And then my mother was the opposite. She, you know, If I have checks, can I write, you know, so she would just go [00:04:00] clothes shopping and come home with six bags of stuff and you know, at the grocery store, two carts of food. And she just always spent a. Really No, no, no mind to budgeting or understanding. And so it was a real conflict between my parents.
Persephone Zill: My, my father used to say, you've spent the money before. It's even in the bank. And my mother would be like, we have to go to the Hamptons, we have to go to Europe. We ha she, she just always, her spending was. Kind of wanting to keep up with others and wanting to have a certain image. And so I think it's ultimately, they got divorced when I was 13 and I, I think it was money was a big part of, they just couldn't get on the same page about it.
Laura Rotter: It's interesting cuz they do say that, you know, many marriages end. Because of money. I did read an article last week, Persephone , that said that we tend to partner with people with separate money personalities or distinct money [00:05:00] personalities and that communication. Is key for the relationship to work, which can be very hard when people just have a different worldview.
Persephone Zill: Yeah. So fast forward to my, I was married for 26 years and I picked someone who was very careful with money and Saved and budgeted and we had a kind of a similar dynamic in as my, my own parents, where I just didn't really wanna look at money. Money felt stressful to me cuz of my childhood and the fights my parents would have.
Persephone Zill: And so I kind of handed over my power to someone, to my, to my ex, but. With a sh confidence, like he's gonna handle it well, you know, so so it was childlike. I had a, a childlike mindset and and actually it's, it's part of my growth story, which [00:06:00] I, I look forward to sharing. How I grew, uh, in that area.
Laura Rotter: Thank you. Because I am looking forward. You say what you teach, what you need to learn. I think so many of us do. And so, you know, start where you'd like. Did it start in college? Did it start later? Where did you start to become aware of your money personality?
Persephone Zill: I think After college, my ex and I moved in together and it was clear we had.
Persephone Zill: I was similar to my mother and, you know, been brought up by her. So I was sort of, I want what I want when I want it. And so the monthly bills would come and Mike and I would fight about you know, he'd be like, I. So many meals out or so many movie, you know, like, you know, he would try to kind of restrain me and I mostly, I can say I, I like put an ostrich, I just put my head in the sand. Like, okay, I have to tolerate these [00:07:00] fights, but he is still gonna pay the bills. Like he, you know, so it was. Not mature. It was irresponsible. And you know, it, it, it escalated as we moved, lived in the city for many years, but then we moved to the suburbs with kids. And um, certainly, uh, the expenses all increased in the suburbs and I was only working part-time.
Persephone Zill: Um, we had two chil, a daughter and a son in 21 months apart. Um, And Yeah, and so the fights increased and I started a business and spent money on a credit card for the business, and it, it racked up quickly to 20,000. And Mike was just like, I'm not gonna help you with, like, I'm done. I, I have all these other expenses for the house and everything.
Persephone Zill: So, Actually, it was painful, but it was the beginning of me growing up, and so I, [00:08:00] I think it was $300 a month. I paid off my $20,000, three to a hundred dollars at a mo a month, and it took a long time, and it cured me because I've never had credit card debts since. I mean, I, I use credit cards, but I pay it off every month.
Persephone Zill: So that was a painful lesson, but ultimately, Help me not charge what I can't pay back. And then we as a family went to a financial planner when our kids were little to set up college savings funds and, and to invest our retirement money. And I. I got a little bit of a scolding from, from the financial planner about my dad and also about, uh, you know, I remember Starbucks specifically being the example of, you know, Persephone, sometimes you skip the Starbucks or, or make the coffee at home, you know, and I just remember feeling insulted and I think she was [00:09:00] trying to say in a gentle way, like, you spend too much and, you know, if you wanna plan for retirement, you have to look at this. And so the, the manner, uh, actually led in the first years of me not liking the meeting, feeling judged, uh, feeling like my ex and the planner were in cahoots, kind of.
Persephone Zill: So it was. Painful. I guess just waking up, waking up to my own ways and wishing I was different or something. Um, but what I love is I first started with paying the debt, then I started. Budgeting. So I, I don't really know when or how, but I started an Excel spreadsheet and I started looking at, you know, what are my expenses? What's, what money's coming in from my work and, and how am I gonna manage my cash flow? And it was, I. A learning curve. I [00:10:00] always liked Excel and I liked, I liked numbers from business school. I wasn't afraid of, of, I liked, I felt like budgeting te tells you a story. And so it wasn't, I didn't have to overcome kind of excel, uh, but I had to start utilizing it. And I, to this day, you know, my, my spreadsheets have gotten more extensive now. I keep a yearly budget and I really look at my ups and downs of my cash flow and plan. Uh, but at the time it really just started with looking at the next like month, month out. You know, I would just keep track and I have to say for everybody listening to this, that.
Persephone Zill: It went from being something I was uncomfortable with. I, I, you know, I, uh, resisted into something that today I thoroughly enjoy. Like, I, I, I always tell my twin sister, and she's not good with money. Probably cuz of our childhood, but I always tell her [00:11:00] it's freedom. It's freedom. You have freedom when you see.
Persephone Zill: So anyway, I, I routinely and excitedly budget now and check my bank balance all the time and make sure that, you know, when I go to a restaurant, what, what I sign is what is what came out. And um, but the other thing is, without knowing it, you know, I was. Unfortunately, you know, my, my ex and I, we met in college when we were 19, and by our fifties we really, we really had grown in, uh, different directions.
Persephone Zill: We really wanted different things in life. And so in 2015, I, I, I went to the food bank feeding Westchester, and I, I took a full-time job with benefits and really it was the next step in my financial journey of. Being able to be responsible for all my expenses, not, you know, Mike had really covered our mortgage and our life insurance and all these things.
Persephone Zill: Um, and so I didn't [00:12:00] go into that job knowing that was what was gonna be happening. But the fact that I got full benefits and I got retirement matching and, and all of that really ended up preparing me for what was to come. And so We, our, our, our divorce was, there was some stress and drama, but we had good communication and we actually had learned to communicate about money with my own growth in the area, it had helped our communication about it.
Persephone Zill: And so our divorce was not contentious in terms of money. It was basically 50 50. And like I'm happy, I'm really happy to say, uh, there were other things to deal with with. The kids and all that. But, but the divorce was not painful in terms of splitting things up. And then I have gone on to buy an apartment and it wasn't really the right size, [00:13:00] so I had to sell it and then buy a second apartment, and I couldn't have taken these steps of really paying all the bills.
Persephone Zill: Um, learning how to purchase. Real estate if I hadn't started with the baby steps of paying off my debt and learning how to budget. And um, so I've really built a muscle in this area and now I see the financial planner on my own and she always says my success story and. It wasn't really because of her, it was because of me.
Persephone Zill: Uh, finally kind of growing up and stepping up and just to connect it to the work I do. I very much wanted women to have a voice and to stand in their gifts to, I. To self-promote, to be able to do public speaking, to be able to sell, like close the deal. And so those are the areas that I really focused on [00:14:00] in my training, in my personal counseling with women starting businesses.
Persephone Zill: And as I've grown in the financial area myself, I now stress that. Equally when I'm counseling people about demystifying, you know, really helping, we have so many students that come to us that they love the marketing part of starting a business. They love their product or service, but they don't like promoting themselves and they don't like running numbers.
Persephone Zill: To see what the numbers are saying. And so for me, it's a scorecard of their hard work and I really try to help them, not be afraid of, of Excel. Help them see, oh, this is giving you data that's gonna tell you whether this is viable, whether it's worth doing, how long it's gonna take to break even, how long it's gonna take to be able to collect a salary yourself from your hard work.
Persephone Zill: And so, We do teach what we need to learn. And I'm a little [00:15:00] embarrassed to say my journey with money was bumpy and not as strong as I'd like my clients to know. But I, but I do think that it really has helped me be a, a better trainer and counselor because I really know what that looks like to not wanna look at the money and to not face it for a long time.
Persephone Zill: So that's my, that's my story, but I, I really. I feel so strongly now about how wonderful it is to have a sense of your finances and and how much freedom it gives you. Like, I, I really, I'd have a very different post divorce life if I was still spending on the credit cards and, uh, you know, not looking at things. I, I would be a much more scarce life than what I have.
Laura Rotter: So thank you for sharing that. Uh, Persephone, I'd like to reflect some things back at you, which are, you made a [00:16:00] comment that so resonated with me that money tells a story. Both when I, uh, in my previous life was an institutional investor and now working with individuals, of course, the numbers are important.
Laura Rotter: You just stressed how important they are and yet, I see them as the scaffolding for a life. I might feel like if someone gets joy from going to Starbucks, it gets them out of the house with the kids that I, I wouldn't necessarily be quick to judge. I wanna understand, you know, what people's values are and then how that fits on this scaffolding of the financial resources they've accumulated and can accumulate, but, Again, as you so beautifully said, money tells a story.
Laura Rotter: It isn't the end in and of itself. And then the second thing that I love that you said, and you just repeated towards the end, that, uh, budget [00:17:00] equals freedom. I, I've never loved the word budget. I, I started off by calling it a financial freedom plan and um, I'm also a yoga practitioner and there is this concept that setting boundaries, Helps you create freedom, right?
Laura Rotter: If you don't have any boundaries, then you are all over the place. And so it, it really does, and I like to personally start with mindfulness. When I left my previous career, I had to shrink my spending our family budget. Dramatically. And I started by just coming up with a number that I could spend weekly and transferring that amount into another bank account where I'd either only take out cash or use a debit card.
Laura Rotter: And I started it off by telling myself, well, if I come to Wednesday and I've spent it, I can transfer more money and it's just a piece of [00:18:00] information. Cause if everything's on a credit card and you need to find a Sunday to look back at the credit card, or even to constantly enter into an Excel spreadsheet, many people won't have the ability to do that.
Laura Rotter: So I like the system and also the ability to say to myself, it's information. It's not there to be. You know, prohibitive and, oh no, now I can't buy a cup of coffee, but just, oh, I'm spending a lot more than I thought I was. Or perhaps I'm spending a lot less than I thought I was. But I think it's important to have these touchstones so that we're mindful.
Persephone Zill: Yeah, I, I do yoga as well, and I like that idea of a growing edge. You know, like the thing in the practice that is hard, but yet, If you sort of push towards it, you do increase your balance, you increase your courage, you increase your, you know, flexibility. And that's what I feel my journey has [00:19:00] taught me. I, I don't deny myself.
Persephone Zill: I do have Starbucks every once in a while. Um, and I, and I really appreciate it when I have it, versus before when I just had it all the time and I, I didn't even value it. But if I, if I use my sister as an example, She loves to travel and she makes a lot of money. She's an attorney and um, but she never runs any numbers.
Persephone Zill: So she always Hawaii. Yes. Egypt, yes. California. Yes. New Orleans Jazz Festival. Yes. And so what ends up happening is she has. Cashflow problems because she's sort of always paying off hotels, airlines, and her mindset is, I make a lot so I can travel a lot. And what I see from my journey and my budgeting is gotta see when like, oh the, that travel's gonna.
Persephone Zill: Coincide with your Geico being due or your [00:20:00] life insurance being, you know, and you have to be like, the, that's going to put me in the negative that month, the next month, you know, and so maybe I should travel in a couple months from now. The cash flow is better. You know, so, not that she can't travel, but just having an awareness of how it influences the rest of her budgeting.
Persephone Zill: So so anyway, I, I keep trying with her, but it's so far not working, so I just can. Practice my own good budgeting. But I, I agree with you that early on, had I been too rigid with I can't, you can't, I would've rebelled and just been like, yes I can and I will and I'm going to, cuz that was my all or nothing thinking back then was don't tell me kind of what I can and can't do.
Persephone Zill: And now, All these years later. I actually really like the middle road of balance between not denying but also [00:21:00] not overdoing. Um, I actually get uncomfortable if I'm, let's say, put something on a credit card and I'm not sure, like around the holidays tends to happen to me a little bit where all this just expenses and I.
Persephone Zill: Sometimes, you know, we'll spend a little more than I than I have, but I literally get a little bit of a pit in my stomach. Like, I don't like this, I don't, I know what this looks like if you keep going with this. So so I'm grateful cuz it actually keeps me like by January. I paid it off. It's paid off. I went a month with some interest, but but, so anyway, so it's, it's a, it's a, it's been a growing edge for me that is now.
Persephone Zill: Like I said, I enjoy it. I, I did have a learning curve when I was buying the current apartment I'm in. Um, I was trying to sell and buy at the same time for cash flow reasons, and I didn't reach out to my financial planner. And after it was [00:22:00] all done and I had a lot of stress about timing of deals, she was like, oh, we could have taken money out of your retirement and used it to do the first deal and then put the money back in for the, and I was angry.
Persephone Zill: I'm not angry, but I was. Frustrated with myself that I was trying to go it alone. And, and yet I, I have an who could have helped remove a lot of stress around what ha, how it all unfolded. But you know, now I know for the future, for the next time, uh, that I can do that. And that I would reach out to her and say, what's the best way to manage this?
Persephone Zill: So we're always learning.
Laura Rotter: Yes. I have a question for you, Persephone, you. You noted that one of the things you love to do is to help women with self-promotion, which we are notoriously uncomfortable with it as a generalization, not a great skill set. Tooting our own horn, as they say. So I'm curious if that was a skill you feel [00:23:00] like.
Laura Rotter: You've always had or has that been informed? And it doesn't have to be by your increasing self-confidence around money. Given your background, I would assume there's some skills that you use.
Persephone Zill: Yeah, I mean, I, I come from a family where we, the values were get a good education. Um, do a lot of socializing self-promote your career.
Persephone Zill: So I think I learned in childhood how to work the room, if you will, uh, just based on, on my parents and their careers. But, but I did have, uh, The way it showed up for me was when I had my own coaching practice. I, I didn't like being the service. I, I, I loved the coaching and I, I think I did a pretty good job for a part-time gig.
Persephone Zill: I got up to making like [00:24:00] 60,000 a year or something. So I feel like I, I mastered the business aspects of having a coaching practice, but I really was uncomfortable. You know, I had a persephone zill enterprises.com and I, I don't know, I just really did not like being the, the brand, I guess. And so that's why I ultimately went back to, to working in Women's Business Center to be part of a team cuz I.
Persephone Zill: Wanted the work to just come to me and not have to be out there hustling myself. But that's actually a growing edge for me right now because I I'm an interfaith minister and I do, yeah, I do weddings and funerals and spiritual counseling and I'm gonna start. Um, just a little side hustle, but I'm gonna just start to market that.
Persephone Zill: I do that as something I grow in retirement into a, maybe a halftime job. And I [00:25:00] have the personal growing edge, the personal goal to be, uh, Sort of do what I teach the clients, which is I'm good at this. I love this, this is what I was born to do, and so I'm gonna toot my own horn. And you know, I set it here on camera, you can hold me accountable to it.
Persephone Zill: Um, but it's, it's, I feel hesitation. I feel resistance, but I'm I'm gonna do it afraid.
Laura Rotter: Yes, As I've, uh, a, a quote, I don't, I'll, I don't know exactly who said it first, but there is no courage without fear. And so I love that you're gonna do it afraid. I'd love to hear more about what draws you to spiritual direction, and again, trying to get at what you feel like your natural skills or the skills you've developed over time are leading you to consider.
Laura Rotter: This role in the future.
Persephone Zill: [00:26:00] So I come from, All my grandparents were Catholic, and my parents were six. They were in the sixties. You know, that's when they graduated college in the early sixties, and they rebelled against their parents, and so they were atheists. So in my childhood, I. I got very mixed messages about religion cuz my grandparents would be like, we go to church, we pray, you know, but then my parents would be like, that's ridiculous.
Persephone Zill: And um, and so I was a very spiritual kid in that I was, I. Deep. I don't, that's the best way to put it. I just thought about things like death and I, I really sensed interconnectivity and out nature and I could kind of read the room like of what I was sensing. Uh, you know, like a lot of guests that we had over for dinner had big egos and thought they were so important in the world.[00:27:00]
Persephone Zill: And I could sense like their sort of, Full picture, not just their ego, their insecurity too, I guess. Uh, so anyway, so I didn't have any outlet. There was no outlet to say, this is what this is. And it was actually a, a tragedy. My friend's mother, I. My best friend in fourth grade when I was in my early twenties, her mother, just a lawyer helping poor people and she was on the way to her law, her clinic, and she got mugged with a hit over the head with a pipe and she died.
Persephone Zill: And I went to the funeral and it was at a Unitarian church in Washington, DC and I, it was so beautiful and such like deep. People were speaking such wonderful things, but also talking about some of her challenges in life. And that was my aha. Where I was like, I love this. I, I don't know what this is exactly, but I love it.
Persephone Zill: So I started going to a unitarian church [00:28:00] myself, and then I married someone Jewish, so we. Raised our kids, kind of interfaith. And in my early forties, I went to a weekend program one weekend a month in the city called One Spirit Learning Alliance, and it was a certificate program to become an interfaith minister where we didn't study the dogma of the religions, we studied the practices.
Persephone Zill: So we studied the yoga, the centering prayer, the just we, we went. Through all the different religious traditions, but not from the head-based kind of bible and all that. We, we had to go to, to services and we had to try the different spiritual practices and we had to write a, a manual where we wrote our own ba.
Persephone Zill: The idea of the program was based in our own faith tradition. So we're not trying to say we're something we're not, but stemming from our own faith tradition, we respect. All [00:29:00] others as you know, one pathway to the divine. So a respect. So anyway, so I, my path is Unitarian, which is basically question everything and sort of value, you know, value-based life.
Persephone Zill: But then my spirituality is really nature, energy. It's more like almost Native American spirituality, more, I would say. So anyway, so I, I do. I basically do ceremonies for people who consider themselves spiritual. I don't do religious ceremonies, but I do, uh, spiritual ceremonies and I love it. I absolutely come alive.
Persephone Zill: I was, I think had I grown up with a faith tradition in my childhood, I probably would've gone right into that as a career right into it. And as opposed to this path, I found a very spiritual thing to do, helping people. Find their purpose, their passion, and develop it, ignite it, and create a [00:30:00] plan. And so I, I feel my work is very spiritual.
Persephone Zill: I, I help, I'm a guide kind of, or a, a catalyst igniter. And I know I had a, a beautiful experience. Uh, WEDC's 20th anniversary celebration in a big ballroom in White Plains where they. Announced at the end, oh, Persephone's come to join us for this celebration. I wasn't working at WEDC at that time, and so there was like applause in the room.
Persephone Zill: And then when the event ended, people came to me from like all corners of this, of this ballroom and were like, Your words are in my head. I have a business plan because of our counseling. I I opened a second branch because of what we did and, and, and so I felt like I was at my own funeral. Like, like, oh wow.
Persephone Zill: People don't usually get to experience how they helped people, but it's, I don't think of it as me, my ego, I think of it as. This is the way [00:31:00] my, I'm I channel almost, if you will. I, I help people access their own deepest knowledge and wisdom, uh, for their journey. I help, I'm like a companion, I guess.
Laura Rotter: I love that beautiful description of the through story in your life that you have been a guide in. No matter what role you're in and even the role you're considering for your future is really. A guide to help others find themselves,
Persephone Zill: um, and get out of their own way. If I had to sum it up, I would say just as I had to get outta my own way from my parents' mixed messages of money. Um, and I had to painfully own that I was acting out, if you will, with money.
Persephone Zill: Uh, but, but I help share with others. Maybe I question people. I, we look at their life story, we look at their patterns and we look at their gifts and [00:32:00] their, what they difference they wanna make in their life. And I help them get going. I, I help them get out of the sabotage or, you know, work on, start to work on, like you did with your banking separate bank account that when you spent it down, You have to face that.
Persephone Zill: But I help people sort of with this beginning baby steps of, of if they want this as a dream, what do they need to do today? And then for people that really run with it, then they can come back for quarterly counseling to expand their goals and grow their goals into real traction.
Laura Rotter: So Beautiful and so resonates with me. I know people come to me again with this sort of dollars and cents, this is what I have. Is it enough And, and there's so much anxiety and shame that they come to me with that I. In many ways, I feel like my role, though I may not articulate it, is as [00:33:00] a healer to create sort of a safe, sacred space for people to talk about their worries and their anxieties and their hopes and their dreams, and then again, how do the resources they have and will continue to have help reach.
Laura Rotter: What is exactly their goal according to their values and not what the TV commercials tell them their goal should be, or their parents told them their goal should be. And as you said, that's something that's, that's work over time and doesn't happen right away.
Persephone Zill: Yeah, I mean, in my own journey with that, I, I feel like I have a rich life. Because it is value based and I am responsible with money and I, I plan, but I, I don't have enormous resources, but I feel that I have what's important. You know, I have a, a great relationship with my adult children and I have really. [00:34:00] Work. I love friends I adore, and unlike my sister, I'm not a big traveler.
Persephone Zill: I like to travel inward. I like to do spiritual traveling, but I, but I have a rich life. Like it has a lot of meaning. And I don't think, I think if I had stayed on the trajectory I was on, I would be living in worry and fear and shame. You know, I, I'd be living in, I want this, I can't have it. You know, I, it would all be about, Sort of chasing my tail with money story and not getting the money in a good plan planning way so that I could then focus on the other things that give real meaning, you know?
Persephone Zill: So it might be a Starbucks coffee. Some days it might be a, uh, one of the things I've learned is. Like, I bought myself a nice Bose speaker over the holidays and it, it brings me so much joy that I'm like, I think I wanna get another one for another section of my apartment. You [00:35:00] know, like, I'm just, this is a great thing.
Persephone Zill: You can use your iPhone or your MacBook. Um, it's. So I literally had the thought today of like, gotta start budgeting for my next Bose speaker. Like, I want it, I'm getting it and I want it, but I gotta like work it into the budget. So that's like an example of a changed me cuz the, the younger me would've just, oh, I have a credit card, I have number of credit cards.
Persephone Zill: Let me just charge. Um, so anyway, so I think that's, that's pretty much, that's my story. And, and I love to I love to help others really grow past, like, you know, what is their dream and what do they need to do, both to unlearn things that are not serving them, but also grow in areas that, that will ultimately give them more freedom.
Persephone Zill: So I like to, I like to, I think I have, my dad's a social scientist and I think I have, there's a part of me that's like, what is the. [00:36:00] I don't know. What is the story I like, like you, we'll end with where you started, what, what's the story and how to shift the story, uh, so that it flows better and unfolds. Um,
Laura Rotter: So as we come to the end, can you see exactly how the story has shifted since you were younger? And I guess where we could go on to a question of what helped you? Make these shifts in your life, and what would you recommend to our listeners? What kind of, who should they reach out to? Maybe talk about WEDC they're considering transition in their lives.
Persephone Zill: Yeah, that's, that's a great I sort of did a lot of the journeying and the financial world on my own, I think, cuz I was ashamed by it and I was, you know, it was an internal struggle in my marriage and everything. So I kind of, I guess having kids and, and, and getting a little older and more mature. I started taking [00:37:00] the, the steps myself.
Persephone Zill: But when I look back, I wish I had reached out to. Professionals like yourself to a WEDC uh, cuz I, I kind of did it the hard way. I, I would say, you know, and I, I think to go to supportive environments, our, our nonprofit Women's Enterprise Development Center is very much like What you were describing, your container that you create for people.
Persephone Zill: It's a place to share your vulnerable, the things you wish you did differently, that you want to change, but you don't know how and what happens. In our program, it's a four month program where women go through a. Um, creating a business model canvas. So they create kind of a one page plan for their business, and we always start it with a, a Saturday where everybody's together.
Persephone Zill: It's called our Success Skills Day, and we bring in a life coach and then we bring [00:38:00] in a financial Counselor and they look at their credit and they look at you know, what it is they need to work on to start to understand budgeting so they can do it for their business. Like if they're not doing it in their personal life, they're not gonna be able to do it in their business.
Persephone Zill: So we kind of start there at the beginning of the four months. And so what is amazing about that Saturday is that everybody realizes with 20 other. People, I'm not the only one. Look, they're ashamed, they feel guilty. They wish they looked at their credit card statements. They wish, you know, and so it's a real bonding moment for our students of I'm not alone.
Persephone Zill: I, you know, I'm doing the best I can. And now, We provide over the four months, lots and lots of resources for how to work on whatever needs working on. So it could be sales, it could be public speaking, it could be the numbers, it could be all of those things. [00:39:00] Um, and we often have students who have real strengths in some of those areas, and so they support.
Persephone Zill: People that don't. And it's, it's, I call it a learning lab of everybody gets stronger together, like more courageous and everyone believes in each other by the time they get to the pitch competition at the end, it's like so much support in the room and, and, and everybody, the transformation from day one to four months later.
Persephone Zill: It's we just had a graduation last week and it was like Oprah. I felt like, oh my God, made this. Cause people were like, a year ago I was on food stamps. Now I have a plan for how I'm gonna make money. You know, someone else was like, this is the first thing I've done for myself in 25 years of being a mother.
Persephone Zill: I've, I've taken this step for myself and my own future. So so I know that, uh, for me personally, Learning everything I did and, and getting stronger and more [00:40:00] awake, uh, with all, with it all helps me in planning for the, for the students. We bring through the program helps me understand where they're coming from and also bring in great resources so they don't have to do it the hard way. The way I. The way I white knuckled my, uh, financial growth.
Laura Rotter: It sounds amazing. I always think there's so much power in getting a group of women together. Women again, as a generalization, are more willing to make themselves vulnerable. And then when you have a space that creates the safety for that vulnerability, In a group, it's, uh, I've experienced it myself, and it, it's, it's amazing. So...
Persephone Zill: Exactly what you're saying in, in terms of I always say that folks that come in so boastful and like, you know, at the beginning, by the end, they're humble [00:41:00] and letting their classmates. Go to the podium and the people who are terrified of getting up in front of others, by the end they are like, I love this.
Persephone Zill: I love, you know, so it's what, whatever is sort of supposed to happen, it happens and it's done in, in everyone holding hands and we got this kind of thing. We got this together. So I it's part of why I love what I do, because I love to see that, that growth.
Laura Rotter: So Persephone, if our listeners are curious to get in touch with you or learn more about WEDC what would you recommend?
Persephone Zill: Yeah, so go to our web website. It's, it's WEDC biz.org, W E D C B I Z wedcbiz.org and we have an E-News. Scroll down to the very bottom of the homepage, sign up for our E-News. It comes out every Thursday and it features all our, everything we do, which is um, training. [00:42:00] Monthly webinars, individual counseling, help with getting certified to do business with the government, help with, uh, micro loans for your business.
Persephone Zill: So we have a full, full array of offerings. And then networking events. So please sign up for the e-news. You'll find out what's happening. Most of our, most of our programs are free. Um, the four month class is $200. It costs us. Thousands. So it's subsidized by your tax dollars. Um, take advantage of it.
Persephone Zill: You're pre-paying for it already. And and then men are, we have 15% of our clients are men. It's often like a, a spouse or a brother or a, but it's a brave, brave men that come, uh, largely women. Largely women. And um, and then we have meet the team, which is the, the. Staff of WEDC and you can find me there and you can find my, my number and my extension and get in touch with me.[00:43:00]
Laura Rotter: Thank you. This has been a great interview. I've learned so much about you. I do know that we're both, uh, graduates of Leadership Westchester, and we're both Barnard graduates, so ok. Yes,
Persephone Zill: I, I'm not sure I knew that, or I, I didn't remember, but yes, that's I think Barnard, I don't know about you, but it definitely taught me go for it all in life, you know, like, Say Yes to your dreams.
Laura Rotter: Yes. And, and acknowledge the fear and continue to say yes.
Persephone Zill: Yes, yes. What does they say? Fear stands for? False evidence appearing real. I, I know for me, you know, it's often about, Like that you said the fear is part of public speaking. It's part of running numbers. Like, oh no, I'm gonna run out of money this month.
Persephone Zill: You know, like there's, so it's, it's like learning to dance with fear versus, uh, [00:44:00] getting it to stop you. Uh, you know, it's stopping you. I. It's part. It's part of it. It's part of the journey.
Laura Rotter: So thank you so much, Persephone, for being my guest. Really enjoyed our conversation.
Laura Rotter: I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Persephone Zill, Program Director of WEDC the Women's Enterprise Development Center. There are a number of things I took away from my conversation with Persephone. I love how she noted that though budgeting may sound like a dirty word to many of us to Persephone, budgeting represents freedom.
Laura Rotter: She describes being really resistant at first to the notion, but now she enjoys it. It's freedom. She says, when you understand your finances, and she feels that the personal work she's done around her [00:45:00] finances, Is connected to the work she does now, helping women have a voice and stand in their gifts.
Laura Rotter: What I learned from our conversation is first of all, be willing to grow an edge. Growing an edge is how Persephone sees the financial journey she has been on. Similar to yoga, we don't shy away from the parts that are hard. Instead, we push towards it and then we are able to increase our balance, increase our courage.
Laura Rotter: Increase our flexibility and resilience. Another takeaway, move forward while you're afraid. Persephone talked about moving forward while afraid to pursue a part-time career as an interfaith minister and a spiritual director. She sees her [00:46:00] through story as helping people access their deepest knowledge and wisdom as they go along their path.
Laura Rotter: And finally, find community. Persephone describes WEDC the Women's Enterprise Development Center as a safe space where women can learn to start their own businesses while being vulnerable. Together, enjoying this podcast. Don't forget to subscribe, so you won't miss next week's episode If you are enjoying the show, a rating and a review would be so much appreciated.
Laura Rotter: Thank you.
Thanks for listening to Making Change with your Money certified financial planner, Laura Rotter [00:47:00] specializes in helping people just like you organized, clarify, and invest their money. In order to support a life of purpose and meaning, go to www.trueabundanceadvisors.com/workbook for a free resource to help you on your journey.
Laura Rotter:
Disclaimer, please remember that the information shared by this podcast does not constitute accounting, legal, tax, investment, or financial advice. It's for information purposes only. You should seek appropriate professional advice for your specific information