A conversation with Susanna Harkonen, an organizational mental health expert Susanna serves various organizations with subject matter expertise on psychological safety and health, neuroscience, and workplace mental wellness.
Susanna Harkonen is an entrepreneur, and licensed psychological counselor with global business experience. She specializes in individual and organizational well-being and psychological safety and serves as a subject matter expert in the WHO’s Pan-European Coalition on workplace mental health.
Susanna shared that money was "very yin-yang" in her family of origin. On one side of her family, people were very focused on material goods, and measured others by what they earned and what they owned. The other side of her family was more spiritually oriented, and money was very seldom talked about.
Her early upbringing led to her interest in the psychology of money, including issues of shame and, as a trauma therapist, money trauma. As she notes, money is quite a difficult topic for many of us. It's often easier to deal with childhood trauma or neglect or abuse; financial Issues, however, are often the hardest ones to tackle.
“By and large, people are more comfortable talking about their sex lives in public than they are talking about their money and what they have in their own account, and what are the shameful areas they have in their lives around money.” - Susanna Harkonen
Key takeaways:
- When it’s time to make a change, you’ll know. Susanna transitioned from a career in business to counseling psychology. Although it may sound like a big leap, Susanna recalls that there was a clear point when she knew that she could no longer work in the business world, that she felt like she was selling her soul. She didn’t feel like she had an option. If she didn’t make the change, she was going to have health problems and burn out.
- Choose a career that reflects your interests. As a lifelong learner, Susanna enjoys the field of psychology, which is always evolving. As she shared, humans are a fascinating species and though things are not as complex as we think they are, being a human is not that simple!
- Though it’s not easy, it is possible to change our conditioned behaviors, around money, around relationships and other areas of our life. Susanna has seen in her own life , as well as in the lives of family and clients, that when you’re willing to face the areas of discomfort rather than turning away, change can happen. She believes in holistic, trauma-informed practices that work with the body, mind and spirit to bring healing, and is especially interested in practices that help to create nervous system safety
About the guest:
Susanna Harkonen is an entrepreneur, and licensed psychological counselor with global business experience. She specializes in individual and organizational well-being and psychological safety and serves as a subject matter expert in the WHO’s Pan-European Coalition on workplace mental health. Susanna combines her hands-on business knowledge with her expertise on mindset, nervous system safety, trauma, relationship patterns, resilience, and grit in her work with organizations and individuals. She delivers training programs on nervous system safety and financial psychology to start-ups, international organizations, and academic institutions.
Company: Inner Work World LLC
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/susanna-harkonen
Free resource: Reach out for Susanna's whitepaper, The Wisdom of Our Nervous System
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Susanna Harkonen: By and large, people, people are more comfortable talking about their sex lives in public than they are talking about their money and what they had their own account. And what are the, what are the shameful areas that they have in their lives around money?
Welcome to making change with your money, a podcast that highlights the stories and strategies of women who experienced a big life transition and overcame challenges as they redefined financial success for themselves.
Now, here's your host, certified financial planner, Laura Rotter.
Laura Rotter: I am so excited to have as my guest today, Susanna Harkonnen. Susanna is an entrepreneur and licensed psychological counselor with global business experience. She combines her hands on business knowledge with her expertise on mindset, on nervous system safety, trauma. Relationship patterns, resilience, and grit in her work with organizations and individuals. So welcome Susanna to the Making Change With Your Money podcast.
Susanna Harkonen: Thanks, Laura. Good to be here.
Laura Rotter: I always start with the same question, Susanna, and that is, what was money like in your family growing up?
Susanna Harkonen: Oh, money was very much yin and yang in my family. It was very black and white. So on one side of the family, most people were very focused on money. People would be measured by how much they made or what they owned, they had.
And then another side of my family, it was my mother's side, was very, um, more, more spiritually oriented. So it was, my grandmother was very religious and, uh, in a good way. So money was, Not the root of all evil, but it was something that was not really talked of and, and it was never a measure of anybody's value, for example.
Laura Rotter: And so how do you think that affected you? Which side did you gravitate towards more?
Susanna Harkonen: It is a fascinating thing because when you, when you do financial psychology, if you really dive into this, which I have quite deeply, the messages are so contradictory. So, I feel, I felt early on, I felt like I had two parts in me and I did study business and I went to a business, you know, I went to a business school and I was working in the business world.
So naturally that the, the money side that was valuing money was more prevalent, but then there was also always this underlying side in me that didn't really. Money didn't really matter. So I have never chosen friends because they had money or I have not made choices because because of money in that, that sense.
Interesting
Laura Rotter: though, that you share that Susanna, because it does sound almost like a tug of war, which has attracted you to your study of money, personalities, and perhaps even to use the word money traumas that we grow up with.
Susanna Harkonen: Absolutely. I'm fully with you. Yes. Yes. And, and, uh, I think it's one of the hardest ones to tackle.
I mean, I'm a trauma therapist, so I have worked on trauma quite extensively. And I work on trauma with clients and on money trauma with clients too. But it's quite interesting how it is such a difficult topic. It's easier to deal with your childhood trauma or neglect or abuse or sexual abuse or narcissistic abuse or whatever, but financial issues are really often for most people that I know, the hardest ones to tackle.
Laura Rotter: That's so interesting. I mean, I know even for myself, I grew up, I didn't realize it at the time. I feel like, but I didn't grow up with a lot of money and I always felt very matter of fact about it. And of course, as I also chose finance as my profession, I still am trying to get, dig through the layers of what shame I might have had, how did I process that shame? How did that play out in the career I chose?
Susanna Harkonen: Shame is a huge topic in this space. And shame is such a hidden emotion. That getting to shame and getting to even to sit with that shame, even in a dark corner by yourself, is hard, let alone speak about it.
And I find it interesting because I run courses on financial psychology and financial well being for entrepreneurs. And it's one of my favorite topics because there is the, um, it, it really goes beyond just the mindset and how do I make money? How do I manage money? How do I, you know, raise funding? Those, that's not really my area. It's more the underlying piece, you know, what is my value, where are my messages coming from? What is hindering me and what is supporting me in being an entrepreneur? I'm moving forward. And in these conversations that I have, have with the students, it's fascinating to observe how few people are willing to share.
I get lots of messages from participants and they share those things in private. But they don't want to come out with their names and they don't want to share these things with the group. And of course it depends on the group dynamic. Some people are a little bit more courageous. It's a cultural thing as well, depends on where you, where you do this.
But by and large people, people are more comfortable talking about their sex lives in public than they are talking about their money. And what they had there on account and what are the, what are the shameful areas that they have in their lives around money?
Laura Rotter: It's very, very true. And in some ways, it's what I do, I feel sort of privileged in that I can ask people about their money and they talk about it. But what comes up for me as we're having this conversation, I am going to try to start at the beginning, is that we all teach what we need to learn. So it's interesting that you're leading these workshops.
Susanna, can you share, you said that you chose to go into business. Was that clear to you? I know in Europe, there isn't an idea of liberal arts college. You sort of, you choose to specialize when you're out of secondary school, high school. So how did you choose business? What was coming up for you?
Susanna Harkonen: It was clear to me all the way since I was probably three years old.
Laura Rotter: Oh my God.
Susanna Harkonen: Yes. There's a video that my parents made at the time and, and they asked me like, what would you like to be when you grow up? And it was clear to me that I wanted to be a business person, as I called it at the time. And my favorite toy, this, this probably tells you a lot, my favorite toy was a cash register for kids.
Laura Rotter: That's frightening.
Susanna Harkonen: So, I would go to everybody who cared to play that game with me and say like, what would you like to have? And then I would push the button on the machine and it would have make a very nice noise. And I would have these, these coins and this money that I could, I got out, or I would then, you know, sell and buy things.
Laura Rotter: I'm curious why, was it someone that you admired or was it that you liked? I know for me, I always liked certainty of numbers. What do you think motivated you?
Susanna Harkonen: You know, I was interested in a wide range of things and I, Freud with the idea of studying Egyptology and History, uh, other type of, you know, just History major, and a couple of others as well, you know, just really into, into exploring the world and, and so on.
However, I think that in those days, I had examples of people who were business people and who got to travel a lot and traveling was my thing. And I've always, I've been a globetrotter and love traveling. So it was a natural choice. You know, that was, if I, if I am a history major, I'll end up being a history teacher.
I don't want to be a teacher in a school, but if I go into business world, then I can travel. I think that was probably what was going on in my mind, even though it wasn't a very conscious conscious decision at the time.
Laura Rotter: And so how did that evolve? It sounds, I know you to have been someone who did travel.
Susanna Harkonen: You know, I love the traveling part and some parts of business I have met some absolutely amazing people. I'm still in touch with some of the, some of the persons that I made business with 20 or more years ago. We're good. We're good friends. I just got a message two days ago from one of them.
Laura Rotter: To you as a person, you like people. You welcome people.
Susanna Harkonen: Yeah. Yeah. And we just, we did actually big business with this particular person, for example. Um, but it was always, it was based on honesty and fairness and, and, you know, we both tried to optimize our sides, but there was a really genuine ethical approach and real genuine friendship one can say.
Between us a lot of respect I mean we became friends maybe later after the first business partners but then the respect group because we actually worked so well together and then when you have respect for somebody then it's easier to create you know trust them and create friendships that was just one example so i did like that I really enjoyed it however i did not like the unethical side of it which what I call the unethical side of it like business world is It's, it's, you know, depending on the industry can be very much cutthroat and that's not who I am.
Um, and so, so I can do it, but it's, it really goes against my values and who I am.
Laura Rotter: And Susanna, so who were you working for when you said, you know, that just one example was a business partner. Were you both employees of a larger organization?
Susanna Harkonen: Well, yeah, we were both employees of very large American corporations.
Laura Rotter: But I knew you to work in the more global field. I don't know how, again, how your career evolved, but right, you were working for, I don't know if it was the United Nations, something similar. I don't want to misspeak.
Susanna Harkonen: Yes. I mean, you know, after working for the business world, there was a time, clear point when I said like, I can no longer do this. This is, feels like selling my soul. And I, I was working, but I studied and I got a degree in, uh, in counseling psychology. And that was one of the best decisions that I made. And with that degree, I then went to the UN and I worked for the international labor organization thinking that I would, you know, like hoping to change the world to make it a better place.
And I think that I got the degree partially for myself and partially also to help people. I think many, many therapists actually do that. And it was very, very helpful in many ways. And I have, you know, it's one of the best decisions that I have made in my life, but it was a big jump from going from logistics and supply chain management to, to counseling psychology.
So I went really from a very numbers based thing, uh, the goods in the container on the boat or in the container, are they not? What's the quality? And it was very technical. And in some ways reassuring as well, because numbers are numbers are much easier than people. But you can combine the two.
Laura Rotter: So how old were you? Was it a couple of years into your world, your business career or a decade or more? Just to give our listeners a sense.
Susanna Harkonen: It was roughly maybe a decade or so when I, when I did that transition. So that's sort of a brave transition. It was a brave transition in the hindsight. At the moment, I had no option. I had an option to, to burn out and have health problems or change. And by that time I had already, you know, I was no longer in the, I can do it. I'll do anything for my career. I'll do anything, you know, it's, it changes with age, luckily, and also with maturity. You just understand that no matter how much you work, there will always be more.
Laura Rotter: Yes, but for some of us, it isn't as easy to listen to our inner voice as it sounds like it was for you. Some of us persevere and push on way beyond what we should have recognized as the expiration date. So it's a tribute to your ability to hear what you needed and to make the change. And did you do it while working? Did you go to school at night? How, how did you study psychology and shift?
Susanna Harkonen: I did that while I was working, I was based in, in, um, first in China and then in Hong Kong.
And, um, I studied in an Australian university, so we had, uh, we had our lectures in Hong Kong. And I worked full time and I, I did my studies and I loved it. I mean, it didn't even feel like I was studying. I love reading the books.
Laura Rotter: And that's before we could do it online, right? And sort of study hybrid. You actually had to be somewhere physically at the end of the day. You did it on weekends. You did it at night.
Susanna Harkonen: Yes, it was weekends. You know, we did, um, evenings and we had a lot of homework in between, had to write papers. And I, we had really wonderful teachers. I mean, that I must say that I had, I really gained so much from having those interactions, those physical interactions with the professors and, and the best advice that I still apply came from some of those lectures.
These were really seasoned people with wonderful attitude and it was, it helped, like real role models.
Laura Rotter: Are you still in touch with them?
Susanna Harkonen: They have retired now, so I'm no longer in touch with them, but. And so then you,
Laura Rotter: how was the transition from logistics to working more with your psychology degree? Did it take you a while?
Susanna Harkonen: It did happen relatively, um, easily because that has, people have always been my interest and psychology has always been my interest. So, it didn't take, it didn't take long and then I was able to apply what I had learned at the, um, or some of it at least at the UN. And, and it really helps you to have, um, any, any kind of degree in psychology to understand how humans operate.
And it's one of those fields where you can always learn more. I mean, humans are such a fascinating species.
Laura Rotter: And would you describe your interest as, and I don't know the terminology, but applied psychology, right? It's one thing to have theories of how people interact with the world and interact with themselves. It's another thing to help others understand that. So which is your interest and, or are they intertwined?
Susanna Harkonen: I love research and I I do, I do read a lot of papers and, you know, recent research and what comes up because sometimes the, you have real gems there. There's also lots of research that's really not worth much, but by and large, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting and it's stimulating to your mind.
However, I am really a very pragmatic person and I do want tools that really work. So based on something that, I mean, I, when I work with clients, whether it's an organization or an individual client. I do, my intention is always to provide something that's applicable as quickly as possible and, and, and pragmatic so that people don't have to spend time in trying to figure it out.
That's the intention. And it works for most clients because it's, if the more we complicate things, the harder they are to, to implement. And the more, the higher the likelihood that they won't.
Laura Rotter: And is it always shifting? Again, you describe yourself as a researcher. I would assume over your career, you've seen changes in methodology, changes in understanding of what best helps people change.
Susanna Harkonen: Two of the things that I find fascinating, for example, if you, I mean, one thing that didn't even exist when I was studying, or was just. Emerging was financial psychology,
Laura Rotter: Behavioral psychology, also?
Susanna Harkonen: behavioral finances and anything to do with psychology and finance. How do we behave around money? I mean, there are many names for, for this.
So that's, that's my reference. How do we behave around money? What are the, what are the layers that we have hidden layers that we have around money, whether it's your family, whether it's your culture, whether it's your people around you. you know, your comfort zone around money and so on. All of these things that go into that.
That's one thing that wasn't there when I studied. And it was, um, I think during my studies, it was also very much cognitive behavioral for the focus was cognitive behavioral and the recent developments in trauma and our understanding of trauma, our understanding of the nervous system, safety, our understanding of nervous system, just basic how brain works has evolved tremendously.
And understanding that nothing is wrong with me. It's just what happened to me. And then I can work with that, what happened to me, whether it's money, whether it's relationships, whether it's, you know, anything in life, basically anything is you can, you can figure out most things in life. And we've been conditioned to think that you can't.
So there are these wonderful shortcuts. that you can take. It isn't easy, always. And for the most part, it's not easy in the sense that it doesn't happen like, you know, nothing in life that's really worth striving for is easy. And we're so good at avoiding discomfort.
Laura Rotter: Well, it’s how we're programmed, right?
Susanna Harkonen: That's how we're programmed. But we can override the programming, and when you do that, when you, when instead of avoiding something or going to your comfort zone, when you really dive heads into that pain, into that trauma, into whatever that is, and really it does change. I've seen that in my personal life.
I've seen that with friends. I have seen that with clients. And this doesn't mean that life will be perfect afterwards and there will be other issues, but at least you won't be in that avoidance zone all the time where you put things under the carpet. You know, we talked about burnout and not listening to signs in your body.
That's one of them. Well, I have these payments to make. I have this lifestyle. I want to do this. I know not yet. And before we know it's just we might have might have developed a health issue. So I'm always encouraging people to take action as soon as possible as soon as possible, and really have the courage. To go there and not to live in fear.
Laura Rotter: I mean, Susanna, it's clear that you feel this very deeply. I'm wondering if you're comfortable sharing when there was a time in your life where you didn't feel safe and perhaps, you know, drew you to this work.
Susanna Harkonen: I was a seeker all my life. And I was looking for something to, you know, to, to help me figure things out.
What's, this whole thing, what's wrong with me? Why can't I figure this out? Why can't I get better? Why do I always, why do these issues keep returning? I think we all have these issues that keep returning. And we think that we actually worked on them and now they are our past and they come and bite us, right, when we least expect it, right?
So that was the theme that kept me going, saying like, you know, if there's an issue, I mean, I have to dig deeper and deeper and deeper. And that I think is one of my qualities. Like I can go after one thing, like for a long time, I, I, I can, and, and, and just relentlessly. It can, it can, it has taken years. And I'm still working on issues, many issues, but I'm no longer afraid.
So going back to your question, I think that I had, I had tried different methods. I had tried therapy, I had tried meditation, I had tried yoga, I had tried everything and anything under the, you know, like that, that's out there. I'm, I'm very curious and so I do try things, but then at the same time, and I would stick to them.
So I would, if there was a protocol that I was sick, I had to stick to, I would. You know, if you had to get up at 5 a. m. and do your meditation, I would do that. One point in my life, I did, I meditated for seven years every single day. And I, then I said to, by the year four, I said to myself, like, okay, let's give it, you know, this a little bit more time.
But if I have not seen the promise changes by now, then there's, Is it me or is it the methodology? And clearly it did, you know, help me, but it didn't take, you know, it didn't change the things that I really wanted to change. And I realized that nothing in your life, if there's not one thing that can change your life, it's a very holistic approach that we need.
You need to work with the body. You need to work with the mind. And when I say work, I don't mean that in a negative way, you know, like work, work can be a very positive word, actually, like stamina, just pursue where you want to get. If you want to resolve an issue, then just don't give up. And the best way is really to do it very holistically through the body.
You know, you can do yoga, you can meditate, you can do many things. You can sleep better, you can eat better, you know, the basics. You can go to therapy, then you can go to healers, you can go, you can do, you can do spiritual practice. There are multiple things and they are very, very individual. And, um, so I, I started by having a more holistic approach and, um, was sort of like things that I, I saw worked.
And like I said, I'm very pragmatic. So if something doesn't really work, I don't, you know, I, I want things that work. That's, that's the one thing I'm asking.
Laura Rotter: Though, of course, what's coming up for me is over what period of time? Oh, because you want things that work. But of course we all want things that work. Like I done it for a week, you know?
Susanna Harkonen: Well, like I said, it was like seven years. I think that's, um, That's, uh, that was the longest one. Then I did something for a year. Um, but I think that it, all in all this, this process probably took roughly 15 to 20 years in total. And I was getting to a point when I said like, you know, is this, is this never going to get better?
But I didn't give up. And of course things got better, but you know, like the, these same issues that you may have, we, you know, often have. And then I came across trauma work. And I came across nervous system safety and those were really, those opened the gates big time. Understanding what had, you know, how the trauma had impacted me and there was nothing wrong with me, it was just what had happened to me.
And how that trauma lives in our body and how you can work with the body and with the mind and with all kinds of beautiful things like meditation and arts and music and so on to really bring a holistic healing to yourself. That's what I did and that's what really made the difference.
Laura Rotter: So I'm curious as a layperson when you say that you understood how the trauma affected you, is that, Is part of that understanding a narrative process, like a story that you recognize? Can you just describe what you mean?
Susanna Harkonen: I think it's linked to that, that shame of not being able to figure it out.
Laura Rotter: And figure it out, you say, sort of to pass to a place that you imagine you should be?
Susanna Harkonen: Yeah, going to, yeah, because if you have done so much, And I think this is a very common experience for many people with, with trauma.
They work so hard and yet, you know, they don't seem to overcome some of their, some of their issues. Even though they may understand them, you know, this thing happened to me, it's natural that these are the consequences, but then, and it still takes, you know, time or some people never, never heal. So I think first layer is that you understand that it's in your biology.
It's not in your mind, it's not something you imagine, it's actually in your body. It's your nervous system reaction, it's a reaction to threat. You don't feel safe, and it's normal, and it's a biological reaction. And then it gives you the permission to say like, Oh, I'm not, this is an actual reaction. This is normal.
This is actually the way biology meant it to be. You've been in a relentlessly competitive environment, or relentlessly toxic workplace, or somebody's backstabbing you. And I think many can relate. Then that is, you're in a permanent state of threat. You're never relaxed. In that state, nervous system state where you're meant to be.
So when, when I first discovered these, these topics, then the progress was fast. So before I had, I had done so much and dabbled in all kinds of things and really tried to fix things. But when I found trauma work and especially nervous system safety and what you can do to bring yourself nervousness safety concretely.
And when I started to prioritize that safety in anything and everything that I did. Is this making me feel safe or not? Is this a false alarm? Is this a real alarm? You know, there are multiple techniques that you can use. But then, then by doing that, then I was able to bring more and more of that safety and I would start recognizing situations which, which were harmful or, or triggering and I would, even practices that would be harmful for me.
So if, if something no longer felt okay, then I would just leave it aside and not think about it. Safety first was my, was my mantra,
Laura Rotter: But what I'm hearing in that I is something that I think the first step would be difficult for a lot of people, Susanna, because it takes a level of, I keep hearing self respect, but it's not even self respect.
It's, um, self love, like knowing I need to be safe. That doesn't come easily to any of us in this culture because we're so trained to please others and put others first, especially as women. And to say that space doesn't feel safe to me and I respect and befriend and even love myself enough to then make a different choice is a big leap for so many of us. So how were you able to make that leap?
Susanna Harkonen: It is a big leap. But for me, it was just like seeing the light, it's like, wow, you know, I get this, I get this, this is, this is changing my life. And funnily enough, I have worked a lot with safety in all of its forms. So I have, you know, in my, in my first career, it was the occupational safety, and health safety systems. And, you know, with the UN, uh, with the ILO, I worked with, with that as well to a large degree. So, and, and now with psychological safety and nervous system safety. So the safety, safety has followed me throughout my career. And I, I realized that only recently, but going back to your question of how can people take this leap?
Can I go from, you know, it's What I see when I work with people is quite fascinating. When you have a chance to really explain how this works, it takes away the guilt and it takes away the shame. And when you, when you don't have guilt and shame, or at least diminishes it, then you are able to really go within. I don't have to change anything in me. It's just my nervous system reacting and what can I do then?
Laura Rotter: It's really beautiful work that you're doing. And so I hear that you're doing several things. You, you work with individuals, and you also work with organizations. Could you say which speaks to you more, which you're drawn to more?
Susanna Harkonen: At the moment organizational work. I love training. So I, I, I run courses and, and so it's groups with, of course we have in there's individual issues so that we can, we can address in, in, in groups. And I, I've been teaching these things, for example, at some universities. Which is, again, wonderful because then you can help young minds to be maybe a little bit less stressed.
Laura Rotter: I'm curious between the organizational work, you said that's what you're drawn to doing. What about it in particular draws you in versus working one on one?
Susanna Harkonen: Well, we live in, at the moment, the organizational work really appeals to me because we speak so much about workplace well being and mental well being and health and, you know, this is a big topic and there's a whole range of research on it and, you know, publications and even recently, you know, like how unwell people are. in the workplace. And then you have all issues with talent attraction and retention and so on. However, organizations are, from what I can see, a little bit at loss with what to do.
There's much talk, little action, and resources don't always follow. You have some really good companies that are doing excellent work, but those companies, are a handful. You know, companies say that we want to be a good place to work and, you know, but research shows that only 20% do anything about it, apart from slogans, 20%.
And anything can mean that they have one, one and a half hour course on the intranet for their staff to look at the, you know, during the coffee breaks or lunch breaks, or their free time, that can be, that can actually mean that they're doing something in their minds. So I think that there's so much to be done around this and to systematize it.
And this is where my logistics background comes, you know, into play. Having that combination of logistics and quality systems. That was my first. Line of work. And then combining that with, with wellbeing and mental health and how humans work. So how systems work combined together with how humans work. And there's so much that could be done.
It is a fascinating topic. And I really do hope that more and more companies will embrace it. Am I really hopeful? that we can go beyond talk. I don't know if this is ever going, if this is going to happen. I do hope that it will, but at the moment, I really would encourage companies to go a little bit beyond, beyond the, what they're doing at the, yeah, beyond the, um, The obvious.
Laura Rotter: Beyond the just checking off a box.
Susanna Harkonen: Exactly.
Laura Rotter: And as you know, as a business person, companies are always looking for return on investment, right? And I'm sure, as I know you are, that there is a return on this kind of investment, but they have to see the numbers because there are scarce resources of time and money, which companies need to invest for this kind of work.
Susanna Harkonen: I think a lot of HR professionals and even compliance people would do, they're perhaps not the first ones or some of them are not so used to working with numbers. as one would be in other areas. So combining, you know, just when you look at how much you spend, if you go to an average organization and look at how much they spend in recruitment, how much they spend in mitigating all kinds of issues, you know, there are lawyers, there are ombuds people, there's all kinds of things that happen all the time.
If you put that money together and you actually make a calculation, it's a huge chunk of money. And for the most part, 80% of these problems. Laura, 80% of these problems could be avoided really easily. Then you have the 20% where you have real issues and people who can be genuinely toxic and, you know, cause real harm. But by and large, it's not big issues, it's just that systems are lacking and it's not being approached in a systematic way.
Laura Rotter: I just feel drawn to share and, um, my daughter works for United Health Group. Now, United Health Group, of course, is a multi billion dollar public company, so they do have resources to spend.
She supports families with special needs, helping them navigate the insurance system, and so it can be a very stressful position. She can immediately, after she gets off a call with a family, have an interaction with a mental health professional that can help her go through. But of course, there aren't that many UnitedHealth groups that have those kinds of resources to provide for their employees.
I'm, you know, quite impressed and I'm sure I'm sure they don't do it from the goodness of their heart. I'm sure that they want to retain the people they train, and they don't want them to burn out.
Susanna Harkonen: Yes. And I've seen some wonderful examples of that as well. I cannot speak with names because this is, you know, confidential work, but some large corporations that are doing really fantastic work.
But again, you know, it's often a very discreet area, so you don't really share best best practices in public. The ones that are really good don't really share best practices in public. And then there are also companies who think that they're doing the right thing and they're not. So we'll see where the future leads us because if, if this, if this tendency of people, you know, that people leave companies, if that goes on or if the world is changing at the pace that it is, you know, maybe we finally can actually do what we're saying that we want to do.
And we were reminiscing of the community feeling that you had in, you know, that your workplace was more than a workplace. You know, you didn't have to come up with culture days and, you know, people and culture leaders, you know, leaders, it was just part of, you know, you were working with people, you really truly formed a community.
At least that was what I observed as a child and we both had that same, same experience and we both felt that that was such a meaningful thing. And that is what's missing in today's corporate America or corporate Europe. And we're trying to forcefully bring some cultural aspects to it while, while really forgetting the human in the process.
You still need to make money. You still need to make profit. I'm all for profit. As an entrepreneur, I am. And as a business person, I am all for profit. But it can also be done in ways that don't, you know, don't harm your employees. And I'm not super superficial.
Laura Rotter: I say amen to that. Having, as you know, come from many, many years in a corporate Wall Street environment, I didn't see a lot of warm, touchy feelies, I have to say. That just was not valued. And so I guess I'm skeptical that it will be and, you know, hopeful that people like you can make changes. So, Susanna, you really are in an evolving field. Where do you see yourself in the coming years? And I guess as part of that as a corollary, as we come sort of towards the end of our conversation, how has your idea of success shifted as your career has evolved.
Susanna Harkonen: Success is peace of mind. Success is an inner peace, inner balance.
Laura Rotter: That elusive, it's almost easier to define success. As we both said, we're comfortable with numbers, with sort of numbers and harder, and takes a lot of practice, which I know you do.
Susanna Harkonen: Yeah, but then once when you've tasted it, you cannot go back.
And this doesn't mean, you know, financial success is, is, is, is a wonderful thing and other types of successes, which you can measure, but it can be gone like this. Life is so unpredictable, and changes that we're experiencing at the moment in this world are so huge and so unpredictable, we don't know where this world is going to be.
So, having that peace of mind, that will, that nobody can take away from you.
Laura Rotter: So I move to ask the question, what role has spirituality, or faith, though that can be a loaded term, played as you've gained more peace of mind?
Susanna Harkonen: Well, I named my company Inner Work for a reason. And I'm, I'm more and more of a believer that all change comes from within, really that having that spirituality has played a huge part in my life and continues to play.
And that is my source of wellbeing. That's my goal to resource. And always will be. Oh, I think that it's, it's sad that we don't, we don't really include that part. It tends to be a little bit of a separate thing, whether you go to a synagogue or mosque or, or church or wherever, you know, you're, you're some, you have come from some other faith based tradition. It's, it's such a fundamental, it's the foundation. That you can, you can really rely on and then you can build things on it.
Laura Rotter: Well, it echoes what you just talked about, about coming from a community where it wasn't just a business. Everybody, whatever the pulp paper factory was, what everyone did and what everyone in the community did. And so a sense of cohesiveness and community comes from identifying with something could even be your yoga studio, I suppose, but having a community that grounds you and gives you a sense of self independent of the external trappings that our culture tells us are so important.
Susanna Harkonen: Something that's bigger than yourself. And I think that's the something that gives you meaning and it's bigger than yourself, but it's, it's, you know, in a positive way. So, so we can, we can get hooked up on on things that are bigger than ourselves and harmful for us and others. So, uh, you know, this is about. All the values that any, any kind of spiritual or faith, faith has, you know, kindness and caring and, and, and love and respect and so on.
All of those values you can find in any religion or any, any system that's, that's genuine. It's sometimes hard in the business world and in, in therapy world to speak about this because we tend to be separate. There's the business world, then there's the therapy world, and then there's the spiritual world.
They're like islands, and sometimes there's a ferry between the islands, but for the most part not. And then you hide yourself, you know, it's like this one part of you is not there. You know, you don't have to speak about this actively all the time and bring it to every single thing that, you know, you, you, you share with people, but it's the foundation, and you can't really forget about it either.
And so many, so many people who have this, this, this way of thinking actually hide in closets. I think it's easier to say that you're gay than you're, you, you're a spiritual person.
Laura Rotter: It's very, very true. So Susanna, um, I know that you have a resource that you could offer to our listeners if they're interested. Can you describe what it is?
Susanna Harkonen: Yes. I wrote an article recently about the wisdom of our nervous system. that goes a little bit deeper into explaining the safety that we discussed and how that works in practice. So it's the first, first resource that people can go to in order to understand what we mean by nervous system safety.
Laura Rotter: So I will include that article in the show notes. And if people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way?
Susanna Harkonen: My website is innerwork.world. Com was not available. And, um, my LinkedIn profile is under Susanna Harkonen at InnerWorks. So you can find me on LinkedIn and I'll be, I'll be happy to, happy to connect.
Laura Rotter: Great. So you can connect with Susanna and you can DM her on LinkedIn if you'd like. This was such a wonderful conversation, Susanna. Thank you so much for being my guest.
Susanna Harkonen: Thank you, Laura.
Laura Rotter: I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Susanna Harkonen, a workplace mental health specialist. And I'm going to share with you some takeaways I received from our conversation. First of all, when it's time to make a change, You'll know. Susanna transitioned from a career in business to counseling psychology, although it may sound like a big leap, Susanna recalls that there was a clear point when she knew that she could no longer work in the business world, that she felt like she was selling her soul. She didn't feel like she had an option. If she didn't make the change, she was going to have health problems and burn out.
Takeaway number two. Choose a career that reflects your interests. As a lifelong learner, Susanna enjoys the field of psychology, which is always evolving. As she shared, humans are a fascinating species and though things are not as complex as we think they are, being a human is not that simple.
Last takeaway, though it's not easy, it is possible to change our conditioned behaviors around money, around relationships, and other areas of our lives. Susanna has seen in her own life As well as in the lives of family and clients, that when you're willing to face the areas of discomfort, rather than turning away, change can happen. She believes in holistic, trauma informed practices. That work with the body, mind and spirit to bring healing and is especially interested in practices that help to create nervous system safety.
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Thanks for listening to making change with your money. Certified financial planner, Laura Rotter specializes in helping people just like you, organized, clarify, and invest their money in order to support a life of purpose and meaning. Go to www. trueabundanceadvisors. com forward slash workbook for a free resource to help you on your journey.
Disclaimer, please remember that the information shared by this podcast does not constitute accounting, legal, tax, investment or financial advice. It's for information purposes only. You should seek appropriate professional advice for your specific information.