A conversation with Ali Davies, the founder and CEO of Outside of the Circle. With over 30 years of experience in the field of personal, professional, and organizational change, Ali specializes in the human side of change in life, work, and business.
Ali Davies is the Founder of Outside of the Circle and a Change Coach. She specializes in helping successful professionals who feel unfulfilled with the status quo in their life and work redefine what success means to them, design their next chapter, and create change to live on their own terms in a way that is fulfilling and meaningful to them.
Ali shared that, growing up in Liverpool in the UK, money was not talked about. After she graduated from college, she went to a training program with a soft drinks company, staying in the industry in supply chain management and logistics for ten years. Towards the end of her corporate career, she realized that, although everyone around her considered her a success, she wasn't feeling fulfilled.
"You get to a stage of life where you think, is this it? Is this really it? And people are telling me it's great and you're this and you're that and the other, but this, that, and the other doesn't make me feel happy or fulfilled. And that was when I started challenging what does success really mean and started researching that. And that's where it started." - Ali Davies
Key takeaways:
- Just make the decision and the rest will follow. Ali believes that most people hold themselves back from making a change, because they think they need to know what they’re moving towards and how they’re going to get there before they make the leap. Instead, once you make the change it starts that catalyst of thinking and action and research.
- Start with small steps. Ali shared a story of how she and her then boyfriend, now husband Martin left a New Year’s Eve party early in 1999, after realizing that they were choosing to conform to society’s expectations of how they should celebrate the New Year. They instead decided to hike and watch the sunrise from the top of a peak, in keeping with their mutual passion for nature and the outdoors. This helped them to begin to challenge the way they were accepting society’s expectations of how they should work, something which takes up so much of our lives.
- Know that fear is normal when making any big change. Ali and her husband made sure that all the safety mechanisms were in place, including financial, before leaving their corporate jobs but still found it hard to actually take the leap because of all the fear and the emotions involved. She was able to leave her job once she realized that she thought she needed to be without fear before moving forward, rather than recognizing that fear is part of the human condition.
- Think of Designing Your Life as a way of being, rather than a project. Rather than thinking: this is what I want to do with the rest of my life; and this is what I want my relationships to be the rest of my life; and my business to be the rest of my life, think of your life in chapters. Because things change and we change. As Ali learned, the things she wanted when she left the corporate world 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago, are very different than what she wants now.
About the guest:
Ali Davies is the Founder of Outside of the Circle and a Change Coach. She specializes in helping successful professionals who feel unfulfilled with the status quo in their life and work redefine what success means to them, design their next chapter, and create change to live on their own terms in a way that is fulfilling and meaningful to them. She has been teaching people how to achieve what matters most to them for 20 years. She is from the UK but has lived in the West Coast of Canada for the last 10 years.
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Ali Davies: You get to a stage of life where you think, is this it? Is this really it? And people are telling me it's great and you're this and you're that and the other, but this, that, and the other doesn't make me feel happy or fulfilled. And that was when I started challenging what does success really mean and started researching that and that's where it started.
Welcome to Making Change with Your Money, a podcast that highlights the stories and strategies of women who experienced a big life transition. And overcame challenges as they redefined financial success for themselves. Now, here's your host, Certified Financial Planner, Laura Rotter.
Laura Rotter: I am so excited to have Allie Davies as guest on my podcast today. Allie is the founder of Outside of the Circle, and she's a change coach. She specializes in helping successful professionals who feel unfulfilled with the status quo in their life and work. redefine what success means to them, design their next chapter and create change to live on their own terms in a way that is fulfilling and meaningful.
She's been teaching people how to achieve what matters most to them for 20 years. So welcome Allie to the making change with your money podcast.
Ali Davies: Thank you, Laura, and thank you for inviting me. I'm delighted to be here. I'm excited to have a chat with you today.
Laura Rotter: So I'm going to start with the same question I start all my podcasts with, which is what was money like in your family growing up?
Ali Davies: Well, it wasn't talked about at all, really. So, you know, it was like, I guess the best way to describe it was avoid our family never talked about money at all. So There's not much I can share with you on that and it was only, I would say, when I got into my 20s and into corporate life and such that you start to figure it out.
And then as I got older, into my 30s, realizing, oh, financial intelligence is a thing here if I, if I want to live and work on my own terms. So yeah, so it was not part of family life when I was younger.
Laura Rotter: You just took it for granted. It was there if you needed it.
Ali Davies: Yeah, and we, and we didn't grow up in a wealthy family, but it, uh, by any stretch, but it was just one of those things that was never talked about.
And I think that's the same for, you know, a lot of generations, you know, that You don't talk about certain things with the children. You don't talk about money. You don't talk about these sorts of things. So yeah, it just was what it was.
Laura Rotter: Exactly. As you said, Ellie, you were not unique. And I think even in our current families, money is not something that's often talked about.
Ali Davies: no, it's not and that's why I've made a particular effort with my son once he got to um What are you when he was a little boy? Because he started a business when he was a little boy and we talked about it then And then it's particularly when he got to being a teenager talking about uh money and financial intelligence and um sharing the mistakes we've made And just getting him to be I mean, we're not experts in it like yourself, but just to get him to be aware of it's a topic and it's something that he needs to take responsibility for his education on.
Laura Rotter: That's wonderful. How old is your son now? He's 19 now.
Ali Davies: Ah, great age. Yeah. Yeah. It is actually, it's, it's a really nice age. It's sort of a transition for us as parents because it's that stage where that they're not children. So you're trying to learn to be a parent in a different way, you know, as an adult. So yeah, but I like this stage.
Laura Rotter: Yeah, I certainly feel like I'm a better parent of adult children.
Ali Davies: It's easier in some ways and then harder in some ways, isn't it? I think. But yeah, I must admit, I do like it. I like this stage of life. You know, he's grown, I feel my job is to parent him as finished. And I think my job now is to be a guide and support when he needs it. Cause I think that's, for me, I just believe it's a mistake for parents to continue to try and parent children once they're adults, because I think we have to make the transition with them and adapt to the way we are with them to the stage of life they're at.
Laura Rotter: That is a great way to put it, that we have to make the transition with them. It's as much a transition for us to figure out the new role. So where did you grow up, Ali, and what kind of family system you, how many siblings did you grow up with?
Ali Davies: I grew up in Liverpool in the UK. I was there from when I was born until I left when I went to go to college at 19. And we were in a very conventional working-class family, my mum and dad, and then I had three siblings.
Laura Rotter: Are you the oldest, the youngest, in the middle?
Ali Davies: I'm sort of, I was in the middle for a while. I was, there was my sister who's just over a year older than me, me, and then a sister who's a year younger than me, and then my brother came nine years later. So yeah, so I was a middle child for a while, and then he came. Uh, I became the second child.
Laura Rotter: Interesting. And so please tell me, like, the progression. It sounds like you left home at 19. I'm assuming your son also has left you an empty nester.
Ali Davies: Yeah. Uh,he, oh no, he was 18. That's right. Yes, he did last, um, he graduated high school this time last year. And then he went to university in September.
So I became an empty nester, uh, when he, he went. But I think, um, my approach was, a little bit different in that I, I had friends who'd already been through that. And, um, as you know, I'm a big believer and have been for many years of designing your life after I left the corporate world, rather than leaving it to chance and seeing life really as a chapter.
So, you know, we knew that chapter was coming. We knew from, he was sort of 15, 16, he wanted to go to university. So, Uh, both logistically in terms of what I wanted my life and work to be like next and also emotionally and mentally from the whole, you know, mum with kid leaving home. I'd already started to make those sort of plans and mindsets way before he went.
I don't get me wrong; he was obviously very emotional when he went. I think what helped as well as helping him prepare. for his next chapter, I was doing a new designing my next chapter and thinking about how I wanted my life to be, how I wanted my work to be, and that sort of helped balance off the emotions because you sort of get excited about, oh well, I've got those projects that have maybe been on the back burner for a while, or the things I want to do that maybe haven't fitted with family life, that can now start to come to the forefront.
So I think the whole emotions and transitions of a, of your child leaving home was sort of dampened a little bit. Like I was quite excited about the chapter I was designing next. I think had I not done that, it would have been a harder transition.
Laura Rotter: Thanks so much for sharing that. And so it makes me look forward to get into this conversation about designing your life. But I first want to get a sense. So, did you leave for university at 19?
Ali Davies: I didn't go to university. It was called higher college. So I guess it's stepped down from university. I, yeah, I went to college and I did, uh, I studied business and finance for two years. And then when I graduated college, I went to a graduate training program with a soft drinks company.
Uh, you, you probably wouldn't know them as a company called Britvick, but they were the, the Pepsi distributor, uh, in the UK. So I went to them on a graduate training program and I stayed with them for four years and then I went straight from then to Coca Cola. And I worked in Coca Cola for four years and then I left. So I was in the soft drinks industry for 10 years. It was supply chain management and logistics and customer services. So I had a team, um, we sort of called ourselves the no wind department because we were sat, we were responsible for customer service. Um, but we were also responsible for supply chain and logistics and, you know, being partners with internal departments like marketing and sales and production.
Uh, so we called ourselves the no wind department because you're trying to service customers, but also manage supply chain and logistics at the same time.
Laura Rotter: And so they each had different demands and you had to sort of negotiate in between the two.
Ali Davies: Exactly. Exactly. So we were sort of in the middle, but it was great. It was, I mean, it was great at the time. But like with a lot of corporate jobs and managing a team and whatever, it's, it sort of becomes all consuming. And that was back in the late 80s and early 90s. Um, and by the mid-90s, I was just feeling, you know, you're told you're successful and you've done well for yourself and where you came from and this sort of stuff.
And I was starting to think, well, if I'm that successful, shouldn't I be feeling fulfilled? Shouldn't be feeling mean? Because that's when I started towards the end of my corporate career to question, you know, If this is success, do I really want it, you know, is it, it is, it didn't, wasn't meaningful to me.
And that's where I started the whole, you know, and I think a lot of people get it in, in corporate life and in life. Generally, you get to a stage of life where you think, is this it? Is this really it? And people are telling me it's great. And you're this and you're that and the other, but this, that, and the other doesn't make me feel happy or fulfilled.
And that was when I started challenging what does success really mean and started researching that. And that's where it started.
Laura Rotter: But that was late nineties, you're saying when…
Ali Davies: Bby the time I got to thinking, hold on a second, I've just realized what's important is to create my own definition of success.
It was late nineties, the thing actually that tipped it over the edge, because I guess like a lot of people in corporate, you have this false belief that it's secure. This is security. And if I go out on my own or whatever, and you get caught up in the mindset of, you know, what will people think and your identity is in the corporate world and that the tipping point was, knowing I'm been trying to make steps to leave, but putting it off and I would say putting it off or not really grasping it.
And then the tipping point happened on New Year's Eve, 1999 and me and my, um. Oh, it was my boyfriend at the time, now my husband, we had, like everybody, you know, the conventional New Year's party, the biggest party, it was 1999, and we went down, it was in our, the village we lived in, it was this pub, it was a private party, and we sat there.
And it was about 10, half 10 at night, and we looked at each other. And I think maybe because he was in the corporate world as well, and he was really unhappy with his career and, uh, and his work, and he wanted something different. And I guess we just were in that mode. It just felt so superficial to us. So we went home.
And we put on, there was a program every New Year in the UK called Jools Holland Hootenanny. It was a New Year party, and it was, it was really good music, different bands, different genres of music, and quite eclectic. So, we were watching that, and so around about that time, so over midnight, um, we actually started to talk about, you know, why we'd left the party, um.while I was sitting at home. And we realized, well, we're just partying that way because everyone says you will have to party that way on 1999. And that wasn't our thing. And so, um, I remember Martin saying to me, do you know what we should have done is we should have gone hiking because that's our passion.
So we said, well, it's still not too late. So we went to bed and got about three or four hours sleep. And we got up at, uh, I think it was about half four or five, and it was pitch black, and we threw our hiking gear on, and we had this favorite mountain, I say mountain, it's not quite a mountain, but it's the area in the UK called the Peak District, and it's got these fabulous big hills, and our favorite was a place called Jacob's Ladder.
We used to go there all the time to talk about all sorts of things. So we got into the car, it was about an hour's drive, and we, we got there. Um, of course it's still winter so it's still dark so it must have been about six o'clock and we had these torches on our heads and we started going up Jacob's ladder, um, and covered in mud, falling in the dirt and whatever and literally, I'm not a woo woo person at all. At all. But literally, we thought we were going to miss the sunrise. So we just just ambled up and literally we got to the top of Jacob's ladder. And as we turned around, the sun was literally just coming up over the horizon. And it was one of those moments, I'm not a woo woo person, but it really moved me.
And there was like this, because we love nature, there was like this. bigger thing of the sun rising on a new millennium and watching that sunrise and knowing you feel unhappy and unfulfilled and in many areas of your life and work and think, and I guess is the significance of the moment made us challenge us the way we looked at the significance of our life and that, you know, we've been going on and on about how we want to change things for years and haven't done it.
And literally it was like that in that moment after thinking about it for a year. Yeah. I'm thinking we want to change our lives. No, there's got to be one. We just made the decision then. This is it. And we had a picnic. We got the picnic out. Um, we started celebrating the new year and we just started talking about this is it.
And that's one of my firm beliefs now is that a lot of people hold themselves back because they don't know what or they don't know how. And one of my firm beliefs now is just make the decision because it starts that catalyst of thinking and action and research.
Laura Rotter: I love that story and because it strikes me that you even in walking away from the party and deciding you were going to hike was already moving away from society's dictates of what New Year's should look like.
Ali Davies: Exactly, exactly. And it was a, it was a small step in terms of the decision and just doing it, but it was an important step in realizing is that you don't have to conform. To what other people say is success, to the way the other people celebrate things, to the way the other people live and work. And that when you don't, life changes.
And that, as you say, that moment, that moment of just saying, you know what, hiking and outdoors is more important to us. It made us realize, well, if we're conforming to the way people say, society says we should party, why are we conforming to the way people say we should work when that takes up so much of our lives and the way we should be And how we should what we accept in relationships and so it is sometimes those very small things open a can of worms challenging everything.
Well, I’m not comfortable. I'm not I’m not socializing in this way anymore I want to socialize with people in nature and on walks and outdoors and those I think seemingly small steps are critical because they're things that give you the confidence and courage to then take the next step. And a lot of people I see do today is they look like, Oh my Lord, I want to leave my corporate world, but it's so big. Oh, I want to change some relationships I'm not happy with, but it's so big. Oh, I want to change, you know, the field you work in finances, but it's so big.
And it is, if you look at it like that, but I think one of the most important lessons I've learned is that change or transitions successful ones, all they are is an accumulation of small steps taken consistently and persistently until you get from where you are to where you want to be.
And when you have that new belief, uou can look at any change as big as it is. Okay, well that's big if you're going to try and do it all in one go, but actually if I just keep taking step by step by step and I think that makes it feel doable and as things feel doable so confidence and courage build to just stick with it.
Laura Rotter: It's so interesting you say that, Ali, because you started our conversation and, and, you know, lit my curiosity with the, the term ‘designing your life’. And I did feel myself sort of hesitate a bit because I found in my own life and as I counsel my young adult children, that it's You take the first step.
What's drawing you in? What interest is calling to you? What's that next step? Because as you've just shared, if you say, well, I'm my life, I'm designing my life to be a, you know, historic, that seems too big. That seems scary. Say, oh, well, well, what's the first book you're going to read? Or what's the first class you're going to take? Or what's the first phone call you're going to make? And don't even worry where it's leading you. It becomes a lot easier. So as we continue the conversation curious to hear, but I, I do have a question. I thought you were going to say that when you became a mom, that that sort of had you refocused, but this whole decision was made it sounds like before you had any real big natural obligations.
Ali Davies: We didn't have any, there was just me. And, um, as I said, it was my boyfriend at the time, our husband, there was just the two of us. And we just both had, um, good corporate jobs. It just wasn't fulfilling, and I think that moment to your point about the design of your life, when you start to ask that question of yourself, you realize, well, I'm conforming to the way society and other people, family, friends, peers, want me to live and work.
But if that's not fulfilling, if that's not fulfilling and meaningful to me. I'm just living by chance. I'm just living on by accident thinking, oh, well, you know, maybe sometime down the line, it'll all figure out. And I think then the shift for me and the shift I encourage people to do is that, as you say, the design your life can feel big and overwhelming.
So what I try and encourage people to say is designing your life isn't a project, it's a way of being. And as you just said then each, there's projects within that, well I think I want to leave my corporate career, or I want to work less hours in my business, or whatever. The first step is always research.
So for me, when I talk about designing your life, I always start talking about, about this big thing. And then as you say, most people think, oh, it's a task and it's big and it's massive. But when I say to people, no, you shift away from that and see it as a way of being. The way I live my life is by design.
And it's not just one project. You know, it can be something for the next week. It can be something for the next year if you, if your circumstances have changed in some reason that is, you know, that whole sort of philosophy of that's who I am as a person, the way I live as a person, rather than it being a project.
I think that helps just simplify it down to say, Oh, yeah, it's not one project. I'm not going to change everything in my life. It's, it's the way I live. And right now, what's most appropriate for me in the way I live of designing my next chapter is this. And it's just a small contained project. And I say that because I did, I made that mistake when I was leaving the corporate world of it's, it's everything and it's all got to change and whatever, and, and it felt so hard and overwhelming and you have so many doubts and mindset issues.
But then I think you get to a point where you just think, Oh, hold on. I just need to, the design pieces just for this, getting out of the corporate world, and then when we got out of the corporate world, it was well. You know, the next piece of because we live by design is that, well, where we live is just because we've moved with so many corporate promotions, you know, so what if the next little bit of the way that design your life approach is that, well, is this really where we want to live?
And then that started the changes of, you know, do we, because as you know, we're from the UK, we moved to Ireland for seven years. And now we've been in Canada for 10 years. And so it's those little things. And that's why I say design your life is a way of being, but the work is done in chapters. One of the things we learned the hard way in the early days is things change and we change.
So what I wanted when I left the corporate world 20 years ago is very, very different to what I want now in my life and work. And even 10 years ago, and I'm fairly sure. You know, as me and my husband are in our late 50s now and we're designing this first stage of empty nesters We're literally only looking three to four years ahead until our son graduates university because then there'll be another chapter and we don't know what life Is going to be like or what we're going to do.
So we take this rolling approach So I think people see it as a one off project and it isn't We literally once a year sit down and go through this process We sort of created it through our mistakes over the years, of how you design each chapter of your life, and we like to do it in August each year, and we take paper and the process, and we go to the beach, and we say, you know, always, is this, you know, I guess it's the review.
It's that whole, because things change, taking time out to review, and say, This is the design we've been working to or this is the life and the work we've been creating for ourselves. Is that still right for us? Is that still right for me? Is that still what I want to do with my work? And then doing that once a year and some years it's oh, yeah Yeah, we're on the right path.
We just need to keep going and then other years like obviously over the last year with this family transition is No, you know, I really need to rethink some things and I'm not sure I still want to take my business that direction So it's an ongoing Way of being rather than a project and task. Does that make you know what I mean? Does that make sense?
Laura Rotter: Yeah. And I'm going to ask you more about it, but I first just tried it. I'm trying to situate myself. So 2000 comes to have you and Martin made decisions in parallel. Like how did that initial transition?
Ali Davies: Well, that initial, we were both unhappy at the same time in our careers. That initial thing was just a decision. We didn't have plans. We didn't know. We didn't have a clue what either of us wanted to do and we just set out to figure it out together.
Laura Rotter: So you walked in the next day at some point pretty soon after New Year's Eve and both resigned? No, no. Was that?
Ali Davies: No. So what happened was, after New Year, up on the mountain, breakfast, stalling there, we came back down or whatever, and then you sort of say, Now what? Yeah, I've no idea. I've no idea what I want to do. I don't know how. And so the process just of research started. No, you realize no one teaches you to figure out what you really want for yourself, what would be fulfilling and meaningful. So that was the start point. We didn't even think about leaving our corporate careers.
And as we started to think about what we wanted to do, then it became clear, well, we do need to have some sort of plan for leaving our corporate careers. So what we did was we sat down and because neither is it, you know, that's all we knew from a work life, we sat down and figured out what needs to be in place.
For it to be safe for us to make that leap, because I think there's this perception like you just said is people make this decision and then just leap and just go just resign and what I would never encourage anyone to do that. Um, you know, unless you've got a huge amount of money behind you, but ours was a gradual sort of get really clear on what needs to be in place.
Laura Rotter: So what do you mean financially or are there other variables that you know…
Ali Davies: What reserves do we need to make it safe because we've always been employed? What do we want to do? We need to know what we want to do. We can't just leave unless we know what to do. How we need to manage ourselves, what we need to have in place, all those sorts of things.
Um, so it was all areas of life and work. This is what we needed to be able to say was true in order for it to be safe to leave. And what the interesting thing is, the reason that's important to do is. We did that. So we knew what we needed our financial position to be, which started to figure out our careers.
And the good thing about doing that process is when all those things are in place and then you're still not resigning, you realize there's something else at play. And I think what we don't often to take into account is the emotional side. of change and the human side of change is that you can have, you know, belt braces, the whole lot, all the safety mechanisms, but we're not sure you come to make a big change.
There's always emotions involved. And the biggest one, I guess, for many people, including us at that time was fear, fear of what if it doesn't work out? And what will people think? And, you know, certain people weren't giving us support and all of this sort of stuff. And you realize, but, you know. All my safety mechanisms are in place.
So what I realized now is the reason I'm not resigning is because there's fear and there's apprehension and there's emotions and all those things are normal. But I think particularly in the business world that they're treated as not normal. So we don't talk about them. Instead of saying, you know, you're going through a big change, fear is normal.
You've just got to figure out how to manage it. And so we got to that stage where we realized it was just fear and emotions is why both of us weren't resigning. And I think there's a big mistake that many of us make, and I did for many years, is thinking we have to be without fear before we move forward, instead of understanding fear.
And it's one of the things I've always said to my clients and no one believes me to start with, but fear is a good thing because fear stops you from taking the leap and ending up bankrupt and having to foreclose on your house and all that sort of stuff. You know, fear stops you and makes you say, Oh, hang on a second. Is this right for me? Do I have the reserves for me? Do I have everything in place? And then once those things are in place, you just, you know, say fear is part of the human condition. It's there designed to protect us. But when you put the things in place to protect you, you need to understand that. It's okay to walk forward with fear.
Laura Rotter: Right, and to say thank you so much, sweetheart, for protecting me. I really appreciate it. Right, like speak to the fear.
Ali Davies: Exactly. Speak to the fear and say thank you. You helped me get all these things in place, as you've just said, but now you need to sit in, buckle up, because now you're getting in the way.
Laura Rotter: Right, you're not going to drive the car anymore, you're a passenger.
Ali Davies: Yeah, and I think it's that thing of shifting our mindset to fear is there to be our friend to start with, as long as we use it in a healthy way, but then it becomes something that's just part of the human condition, because I guess, you know, for our ancestors from generations gone by, fear was always to protect us.
And so that's part of our biology and our makeup and our mindset is always to stay with a safe status quo because that feels safe. But I think fear then becomes a problem when we stop it making changes that we're prepared for and ready for. And so that the difference for me with this whole transition and leaping business is it's the difference between taking a risk and taking a calculated risk.
You know, you know, it's safe, you know, you've got the reserves and all that, either do it or choose you're going to stay in the status quo. And it really does, once you've done all the preparation, come down to that. So that took us from January 1st, 2000 to leaving the corporate world was 18 months.
Laura Rotter: That's pretty quick.
Ali Davies: I think it was pretty quick because I think although we didn't have the financial intelligence at the time, we'd never done debt. We'd never done consumer debt. I mean, we spent like most people in the corporate world, you spend on going out for dinner and holidays excessively and all that sort of serious spending what we earned.
But once we've made that decision, we realized if we stopped eating out four times a week and we stopped going on fancy holidays and we didn't buy as many clothes and we did all that, that, you know, we were on good income, so we could actually save. that we would have done if we'd had consumer debt and big mortgages and even before we change this world, we don't, uh, our careers, we'd already decided about the importance of living within our means.
Because one of the things we realized as part of our assessment was freedom. was one of our core drivers and why we were unhappy in our corporate careers. And so if you're focusing on freedom, we started to realize that we needed to focus on financial intelligence and having big mortgages and car loans and credit card debt isn't freedom because it keeps you stuck in situations you don't want to be.
And so we put ourselves quite by accident in a good position in that once we've made that decision we could save like, you know We just saved every penny and we called it our freedom fund. So it didn't feel like sacrificing. It didn't feel like we were sacrificing going for dinner and sacrificing nice holidays It felt like the freedom fund and every time we put you know 100 pounds a few hundred pounds every month. We were quite lucky in that it grew quite quickly from there
Laura Rotter: You're voicing, Allie, what a lot of us find to be true. I did the same when I walked away from my corporate career. We sold our big house and bought a smaller house. We sold our vacation home. I stopped walking into stores every time I saw a sale sign outside. And I don't feel and never felt deprived because. I got my life back.
Ali Davies: That's, do you know what? That's exactly how we felt. We started to have a life. And I think once you start to feel that, I mean a real life, because I think there's a big difference between having a lifestyle and having a life. And I think it's a, you know, it's something people think, oh, I've got a nice car, whatever, why am I not happy?
Well, because you've bought a lifestyle. You haven't bought a life. And I think you do. And one of the interesting things that's come out, it's gone a step further for us in the, in realizing that we're happier. The less we consume or spend is when we then moved to Ireland, we started to take this minimalist approach to life and work and we've become minimalists with everything now and you know, you know, things we buy for the house and our house is quite sparse.
Most people would think, but you know, it does, it's that freedom, it's that freedom to live and work on your own terms. In a way that's deeply fulfilling and meaningful to you and you start to realize those things have been, um, for want of a better word, comforters. You know, if you buy something or you go on a holiday, they mask for a short amount of time.
That maybe you don't have the life you want and when you start to say, well, actually, I'm not going to mask things anymore. I'm going to make better decisions. As you just said, nothing has felt like a sacrifice because it would be a sacrifice to have to stay in the corporate world because I'm funding consumerism to impress other people, right?
Laura Rotter: Or as you said, I mean, I can certainly speak for myself that I towards the end of my career was not happy. So then I wanted to reward myself with maybe a new piece of jewelry or and when you no longer need to sort of put salve on the wound in the form of material possessions and purchases it, it opens up a lot of freedom. So what was your first, you know, after the 18 months, what did you choose to create?
Ali Davies: Well, one of the things I've realized through going through that whole process of well,
Laura Rotter: what was the process? I'm sorry. Could you just,.
Ali Davies: That's okay. So what the process was is we sat there and saying, you know, uh, both of us separately with our careers, this work isn't fulfilling and meaningful to me.
It doesn't feel like success. And so then that created the whole, well, what does success mean to me? How do you have fulfilling and meaningful work? So I started to research that and learn that the key to fulfillment and meaning in life and work or any area of life is to build it on your values. And I didn't have a clue what my values were because we're not taught in school or, and in some of us in our families, what our values are.
Um, that we want to build our life and work on that would be fulfilling because we just, it's not, you know, it's not one of those things that's ever focused on. So, um, we got clear on our values.
Laura Rotter: And how'd you do that? Were there specific exercises you did?
Ali Davies: Yeah, there's an exercise and it's an exercise I've evolved over the years now to teach to, to clients is, is to, people expect it to come easy and it doesn't. And so, you know, it's, it's the recurring question of what would feel fulfilling and meaningful to me. What would I like to be my, build my life around? And you get people to do it on a piece of paper because people can't initially articulate their values and we couldn't. Um, we said, you know, you know, and it's, it's felt quite cliche and cheesy at the time.
Like I want to do something that makes a difference. I want to do something that helps people. I want to do that. I want to work when I want to work. I want to. And all these things. And then the coach I was working with at the time, she really helped me understand. Well, underneath those things is what your values are.
So only working when you want to not being told to go away on business trips. What's the value that's being trodden on there. And that's where freedom came out. And then there was a whole sort of thing around, well, you know, I just want a very simple life. I just want to enjoy life. I want to do work that I enjoy, and I want to have a meaningful life.
And then that's where the value simplicity came out. So we've got Freedom. Simplicity. Uh, and then there were a few others. So yeah, there's a process you can go through, and I think, uh, it's very hard. Well, not very hard. It depends on who you are. If you've never done that sort of work before, it can feel hard, but I think things get messy before they get clearer.
So, once we had our values, then it was about going and saying, okay, if I could build my life and work on this on these three or four things that would be fulfilling and meaningful and then that started the whole what career would that be so for Martin it was leaving um he was a management consultant in the corporate world for him it was leaving corporate world going back to university and, um, getting qualified to be a physiotherapist. Totally different.
And for me, it was, um, training. I realized I'd worked in change management in organizations for so long and I couldn't understand why I was finding it so hard to make my own changes. And so I retrained then to be a coach and I got fascinated by the whole area of the human side of change. So, when I left the corporate world, I set up my first.
Initial coaching and consultancy business around change, whether it's changing still a little bit, I was doing consultancy and organizations, but how to help people who want to change their lives but feel stuck, change their lives, whatever that was for them. And that's where the whole turning my own experience and creating change and designing my life turned into helping other people do the same. So that's the business I set up initially.
Laura Rotter: And how has that evolved over time?
Ali Davies: So I started with career coaching and career transitions, obviously, because that's what I'd done. And then the people who I knew that wanted to do the same, that was 20 years ago. And then I'd been doing that for three years.
And then we had our son and I decided, because when I had my son, I had some complications. So, I knew that I wouldn't be able to have a second child. So, I decided, or we decided together that I would be a stay at home mom. I'd like to have that experience. So that was the next chapter we designed was I actually closed that first business down and I took five years out until he started school.
And by then we moved to Ireland when he was two. So we're in Ireland. And then when we're in Ireland and I came back after being a stay at home mum for a few years and it was still the same work. It's always been the same work, just with a different focus. So then we were living rurally in Ireland. So I became passionate about helping mums who live rurally, who run a business, design their life and create changes around that. So, I worked in that area until we left Ireland and then we came to Canada. And then it evolved to part of what I'd always done. Martin and I called it when we were trying to leave the corporate world, we will redefine success for ourselves.
It was about going outside of the circle. So outside of the circle was a very meaningful thing to us that represented us breaking free from the corporate world. And designing life and success on our own terms. And what happened was it became part of my work and my teaching and my courses, just talking about outside of your circle.
Anyway, it's because a long story short, when we moved to Canada, it started to evolve into a business in its own right. And now that's why my business is called Outside of the Circle. And, um, I did one to one groups, Masterminds that sort of stuff and then in the last four or five years, it's been evolving into an online business connecting professionals around the world and literally this summer, we've just, I'm just testing it out with my inner circle members.
We've just launched a new platform, and it's now a membership and community, a global community, and then we're opening up the doors in September. to our new members in this new format of Outside of the Circle. So to answer your question, it's unrecognizable from when it started, but it's the same thing. It's the same philosophy. It's the same principles.
Laura Rotter: Well, it sounds like you're drawn to the same mission, to work with people who Maybe having the same experience you and Martin did in corporate life and need a catalyst and a methodology to make the change in the same way that I too felt like it was this AHA moment that I was weighed down by all these financial obligations and that when I was, uh, I, it took me a lot longer to make the change than it may took you.
I feel like it was a decade of unhappiness and not a ble to see that I could make a different choice, like the primary breadwinner. I have a big house and that and and that. Oh, I could take my expenses down and then I can make the change. You know, it sounds so simple now, but was such an aha to me. That, you know, I was drawn to share that.
And I also think it's interesting. I, I do values exercises with clients when we're discussing spending and I have my values taped on the wall here where it
Ali Davies: Fabulous!
Laura Rotter: …Spirituality, family. Meaningful work, play and health and it's a, it's a website. I used to do it with cards, but of course I don't see that many people live anymore. So it's a website that is sort of walk you through choosing between till you get to. So it's very interesting.
Ali Davies: And I'm so glad to hear you've got them up on your wall because I think particularly when you're in the transition phase, but even when you through those constant reminders of why you're doing what you do, but we don't we um, quite clearly There's a people trying to leave the corporate world, but we sort of try and encompass anyone Any professional that's struggling with change so it might not just be corporate people It could be a business owner who's built a successful business and they want a better work life balance and you know Or someone you know, that's maybe going through the empty nester thing or whatever.
So We don't, what we, what we always say about Outside of the Circle now, now it's become this more global membership online thing, is it's a space for anyone that wants to, any professionals that have followed the conventional definition of success in their life and work, that have reached a point where they want to step outside of the circle, whatever they mean, that means for them.
So, you know, we've got in our community, we've got people from, we've got corporate executives, we've got business owners. We've got lawyers, we've got writers, we've got all sorts of people from different backgrounds. And the reason we encourage that diversity is because when you're changing your life or your work in some way, having those different experiences across a breadth of all sorts of things is invaluable because that brings to the table things I can't bring to the table and perspectives I can't bring to the table. So we, we have this philosophy in Outside of the Circle that we're all from very, very different professional backgrounds and industries, but we have one thing in common and that's about creating fulfillment and meaning in life and work. So we have so many people with so many different visions of what success looks for them. And if your definition of success is different to mine. That's great. We're going to help you achieve that. So that people feel fully accepted where they're at because I think a lot of people don't have that in their lives.
Laura Rotter: So that is a great transition as we move towards the end of our conversation, Ali. Just, I'd like to ask the question, how has your definition of success and perhaps even financial success shifted over the last 20 years or so?
Ali Davies: I think it's, it's shifted. Enormously. And I think that's part of the whole thing about the design of your life is always revisiting that definition of success and understanding it's a constant work in progress.
So, for example, our definition of success when we were back when it started 20 years ago was just get the hell out of the corporate world. That was our definition of success. But I think the definition of success underneath that was about finding life and work fulfilling and meaningful. So that's never changed.
That's always been through each one, but the definition of success has changed for each chapter. For example, when I had a little boy, the definition of success was I wanted my business. To fit around family life. So I made decisions that kept the business a lot smaller in those days, because that was most important.
And people say, Oh, you sacrificed your career and your business goals. I didn't sacrifice it at all because the sacrifice would have been for my kid to be in, for me, for my kid to be in nursery and after schools, I had one child. I wanted to be part of the afterschool, the pickup, the runs, taking him to football and all that.
That's what my definition of success. My definition of success now is very different and evolving. I'm going through that process again now in as much as still fulfillment and meaningful in life and work, but Outside the Circle has grown into this bigger mission and this bigger purpose. So my definition of success with work is bringing people together rather than just teaching courses and processes is bringing people together and creating this community and movement.
And then from a personal point of view, Martin and I are still redefining what success means as Empty Nester. So I haven't got an exact answer on that right now. It's still a work in progress, but it involves travel, you know, the things that are meaningful to us and hiking, nature, nature is a big part of that.
And also, you know, doing things that maybe you put off when you did have a child for the right reasons to say, you know, well, we'd like to do these things. for us now. And so that's still a work in progress. But I think that in answer to your question, the point is your definition of success, in my opinion, should always be a work in progress throughout the different chapters of life.
Laura Rotter: That's great. I really hadn't thought of it that way. That's a great comment. So Allie, um, our listeners are women who are in a life transition. And so can you please talk a little bit about how they could learn more about outside of the circle. Is there a, is it an ongoing membership? How does it work?
Ali Davies: Well, at the minute, it's a closed membership just to the people who are in it. But in September, we're opening the doors to new members. We're going to bring in a brand new cohort, um, mid to late September. So people go to Outside of the Circle. com and they can sign up membership's not for me. If they go to the website and sign up for email updates, I send out little tips and strategies every week that are related in some way to change and designing life, living and working on your own terms.
And, and over the summer and the next few months, I'm going to be sending out some assignments. and worksheets through the email list. So if people just think, you know what, I'd just like to get those to start with, they can sign up for, um, to receive emails on Outside of the Circle. com. Or if they are interested in the membership, I've opened up a waiting list and priority will be given to the waiting list. So people can just sign up for that and then they will just get all the information when it becomes available to see if it's a fit and a community for them.
Laura Rotter: And is it then a cohort that travels through a process together? That's a little...
Ali Davies: Well, obviously the members that are in there now will stay in there, so it's going to be an annual membership.
But as we bring in new cohorts, we'll be going through the process and the process I've designed over the years of what are the key things you need to do. And be able to do and we're going to work through those and because there is no we're not doing as a course. We're doing as a membership is because one of the things I've learned is the most hardest things I can teach the course and then people go away.
But doing that on your own is really quite hard and change takes time. So we're literally taking a module a month. And we will work through a masterclass and then people will go away and work on the masterclass and work on the assignment. And then two weeks later, we all come back together and we have a live mastermind session on it.
So in answer to your question, yes, we'll be working on the process step by step. But we're going to do it over time and I'm going to be doing it with people who want to implement as they go, rather than just take the course because what I've learned is having that support and people around you Is more effective in terms of getting tangible results than just going on the course
Laura Rotter: I agree and um as a subscriber to your newsletter I will confirm that it's always valuable and always interesting to read.
Ali Davies: Thank you. I'm glad you find it useful I just think it's you know I just like to think of where I used to be and what I needed to know and just send little bite sized tips and strategies and little assignments and, and, uh, hope they're of use to people. So they're, I'm glad to hear they're of use to you.
Laura Rotter: So Ali, as, as we're coming to the conclusion, is there anything else you'd like to share for our listeners?
Ali Davies: I think for your listeners, I just remember, um, what it was like to start a transition and now I've been through many transitions is I guess some of the key things is to be okay with the emotional side. Of that and don't ignore it because I think we tend to focus on the logistical side and that if things feel messy, it's okay. Messy is part of the process. And just I think the key thing is to break it down into small steps. And to take really small steps and to get help and support. I think if Martin and I had had help and support, we'd have done it a lot faster and easier. And with a lot less mistakes. But yeah, I just think, you know, everything can be figured out. Any, everything can be sorted out. You just need to, you know. Believe in your ability to do it.
Laura Rotter: Beautiful. Thank you, Ali, so much for being my guest.
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Ali Davies, founder and CEO of Outside the Circle. And I'm going to share some of my takeaways. Just make the decision and the rest will follow. Ali believes that most people hold themselves back from making a change. Because they think they need to know what they're moving towards and how they're going to get there before they actually make the leap. Instead, once you make the change, it starts the catalyst of thinking and action and research.
My second takeaway is to start with small steps. Allie shared a story of how she and her then boyfriend, now husband, Martin, left a New Year's party early, in 1999.
After realizing that they were choosing to conform to society's expectations of how they should celebrate the new year, they instead decided to hike and watch the sunrise from the top of the peak in keeping with their mutual passion for nature and the outdoors. This helped them begin to challenge the way they were accepting society's expectations of how they should work. Something which takes up so much of our lives.
My third takeaway. Know that fear is normal when making any big change. Allie and her husband made sure that all the safety mechanisms were in place, including financial, before leaving their corporate jobs. But they still found it hard to actually take the leap because of all the fear and the emotions involved.
She was able to leave her job once she realized that she thought she needed to be without fear before moving forward. Rather than recognizing that fear is part of the human condition.
And finally, think of designing your life as a way of being, rather than a project. Rather than thinking you have to come up with, this is what I want to do with the rest of my life, and this is what I want my relationships to be the rest of my life. And my business to be the rest of my life. Which is really daunting. Think of your life in chapters because things change and we change. As Allie learned, the things she wanted when she left the corporate world 20 years ago or even 10 years ago are very different than what she wants now.
Are you enjoying this podcast? Please share it with a friend and don't forget to subscribe so you won't miss next week's episode. And I would really. Greatly appreciate a rating and a review. If you're enjoying the show, thank you so much.
Thanks for listening to making change with your money. Certified financial planner, Laura Rotter specializes in helping people just like you organized, clarify, and invest their money in order to support a life of purpose and meaning. Go to www. trueabundanceadvisors. com forward slash workbook for a free resource to help you on your journey.
Disclaimer, please remember that the information shared by this podcast does not constitute accounting, legal, tax, investment, or financial advice. It's for information purposes only. You should seek appropriate professional advice for your specific information.